Help for my Jazz Audition

[MirageBass]

I'm heading out to college in August, and since my love of bass is fairly recent, I decided to try for a music minor. But, even if I don't, I still want to join the Jazz Ensemble, which will be difficult, since I don't know any theory (I'll be taking an intro to theory course as part of the minor, though). For the audition, I need to be able to sight read (can't), and bonus points for understanding chord notation and possibly improvising to Bb blues (I don't get either).

I'm currently studying with a great sight reading software (SightReader for Bass, working very well), and I think I can be a decent sight reader by the time I ship out. However, I also need to have this piece ready for the audition.

:EDIT: Looks like I'll just wait a year before trying out for the ensemble, then, unless I can actually get up to good sight reading capacity (which is a distinct possibility), as that seems to hold the most weight. I'm still going to study my ass off and hope I can get in, since I have a lot of free time over the summer, and I can probably get decent at the things pertaining to the audition. I ain't holding my breath, though.

[sk8terguy316]

August is in a month. I suggest you wait another year before joining. I do not know the standards for entrance at your school, might as well try but you may not goet in until next year. Bb Blues is not a Blues scale in Bb it is a common Jazz blues progression. They want you to improvise over it? That will be next to not possible considering you do not know what a Bb blues progression is, nor do you know any theory. Improvisation is an extremely difficult art that takes much time and study. (Don't think that I am good at it becasue I am answering this question I am still learning Improvisation) I suggest that you pick up Mark Levines "Jazz Theory Book" possibly Carol Kaye's Jazz teaching materials, maybe Mike Steinels "Building a Jazz Vocabulary"

Listen to LOTS of jazz:

Charlie Parker,Sonny Stitt,Miles Davis,John Coltrane,Art Pepper,Art Blakey, Thelonius Monk, J.J. Johnson,Bud Powell, Bill Evans, Oscar Peterson, Hampton Hawes, Dizzy Gillespie, Charles Mingus, Joe Pass, Wes Montgomery, Kenny Burrell, Sonny Rollins, Ron Carter, Ray Brown.

That is a small list that ought to get you started. I also suggest you starty listening to solos from jazz artist that are simple and melodic (a la Miles,Chet Baker) and transcribe them and learn from their note choice, articulation, and style over chords and progressions. And keep working on your reading chops and get an ear trainer. Transcribing will help your ear, but if you get an ear trainer on top of that you'll benefit.

[JimmyM]

Dude, I'm going to be honest. You're not going to learn what you need in a month, and you're not going to fool the teachers into thinking you have. Do what the second poster said and wait a year.

[Freddels]

Wait at least a year. I think you'll be wasting your $ on college at this point (if you intend to study music). One of my friends is a college music prof and he gets to audition new students for the program. Many can't play very well or at all. He asks them why they want to study music. He's surprised at many of the answers. He explains to them that it's sort of like a student coming to college and never having ice skated, yet they want to try out for the hockey team and dream of playing professional hockey. Now for music you probably don't have to start playing at the young age that hockey players do, but music at a college level is high (or at least is supposed to be).

Study and practice hard with a good teacher. Learn as much theory as you can. Work on sight reading everyday.

I just checked out the piece you have to learn. The composer, Steve Wiest, was a trombone player at NT when I was there.

For learning chords/theory there are several books that you'll most likely have to have for college. Walter Piston or Robert Ottman theory books

Best,

[MirageBass]

Fair enough, s'pose I'll just wait on that particular program.

[Freddels]

We're not trying to tell you to give up on bass or the program. Just don't jump in before you can swim.

[MirageBass]

Originally Posted by Freddels

We're not trying to tell you to give up on bass or the program. Just don't jump in before you can swim.

Hence why I'm trying to learn to swim in the next month . But, hey, we'll see. Maybe it'll pan out.

[Freddels]

Originally Posted by MirageBass

Hence why I'm trying to learn to swim in the next month . But, hey, we'll see. Maybe it'll pan out.

Right. But I think what we're suggesting here is that in one month you may be barely able to tread water and not compete at the swim meet.

There was another post somewhere on this forum about all those band geeks that many made fun of in jr and sr high school. Well, they're the ones that you'll be competing against for grades and spots in bands. They've been reading and playing music for the past 10 yrs (or more).

In one or two years you might be able to close the gap b/w you and them enough that you'll be able to really compete with them. In music, there's really a big chunk of general knowledge that one can learn in a relatively short time (get good so to speak) and then spend the rest of their lives working on the finer nuances.

But if you can learn to read and play the blues in Bb within a month, then go for it if that's what you really want.

Many here will help you and answer questions.

Now, get offline and go practice. You don't have much time.

Keep us posted on what you do.

[MirageBass]

Alright, this is the progress thus far.

Regarding improvising, I downloaded a repeating loop for a 12-bar blues in E, and if by improvising, they mean jamming over the top of it, I've got that down pretty well, but it could use a little improvement so I don't hit any sour notes. Even though I don't know theory, I've still been playing close to a year, and band experience gave me a boost in that area.

Sight reading, though... Well, slowly but surely. I've been using the program for about 2 days, and I can't read fast, but I can read nonetheless, enough to transcribe pieces. I only have some stuff in C down (enough to read from the nut and third fret), though I just figured out some stuff to speed along the process. Let's just say that I was able to read Roll The Bones in standard notation, slowly, but surely (it was the first Rush song in my tab/notation book I saw in C... Similarly, I'm learning other standard notation figures with this book, but not chords, methinks), and as soon as I finish and polish up sight reading along the length of the neck (at least to the ninth fret), I'll move on to other keys (maybe Bb first, but I feel like doing E, since a lot of Rush songs are in that key). I'm not sure how this is for two days of progress on-and-off, but I still have a little over a month. Who knows, maybe I can pull it out.

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by MirageBass

Hence why I'm trying to learn to swim in the next month . But, hey, we'll see. Maybe it'll pan out.

I believe in miracles and that is what it would take being August is two weeks away. I don't think you have a clue as what they are expecting. Colleges music programs are either Classical or Jazz based. If Jazz it will Jazz Blues changes not 3 chord jam band Blues. Reading you better be able to read up to 5th position and syncopated rhythms that is basics. Plus they might throw a chord chard or Real Book tune for you to Walk thru better know your basic scales and arpeggios to put that off.

So unless you going to some tiny community college where all you need to do is spell bass you have a STEEP road ahead.

Good luck you should be able to get some sleep in a few weeks, because you have a lot to not only learn, but learn to play and make sound like music.

[Jeff Moote]

I agree with the above - it's just not going to happen in time unless you're losing sleep and learn stuff really quickly. Now getting to that level in time for next year on the other hand is no problem with a bit of commitment. You can still get the minor if you enter later, right? If you've spent a year preparing you'll have that much of an easier time with everything including coursework in theory, etc.

[MirageBass]

Alright, here's my plan, after careful evaluation:

I have a knack for learning very advanced techniques and songs relatively early on, which is the reason I was inspired to take the music minor (Game Design & Development Major), but realistically, I wouldn't get in - But, let's say I did. It would mean struggling through unfamiliar territory in my first year of college, and would probably be, all in all, a miserable experience. So, change of plans.

The first year of GD&D curriculum is going to be intensive, so, for my liberal arts slot, I'll put in Music Theory I. That will give me a decent background to know what's going on in the field, and it'll give me a whole year to learn to competently sight read, instead of thirty-odd days. It'll also fulfill a basic requirement for the minor (I can go into MT2, but I think I'll decline, for reason I can't really get into, but I'd rather fill the rest of the reqs with music history courses and ensembles).

This'll give me the time and space to ease into college life, but, more importantly, it'll give me the time to establish contacts, and possibly even join a local band. The Student Music Association at RIT also holds open mics frequently, where people can go up, sing, play, recite poetry, etc. I can use this to my advantage by devoting my time not only to sight reading, but also to learning pieces (Jaco, Wooten, hell, even Geddy) to impress people at the open mic night after night, which will inevitably include the music professors. If I can wow them sufficiently (I'm already learning advanced peices for my length of playing), I might get offers to join the ensembles, and a good reputation, intead of "That ******* kid who couldn't even sight read and wanted to join the jazz ensemble."

I think that might be a better course of action .

I'm still going to treat myself to that SX Fretless. Hey, can't competently play Jaco without it!

Thanks for the advice anyways, everybody.

Oh, and Freddels, I must complement you on the Mr. Meat avatar.

[sk8terguy316]

My friend, I really honestly believe you are completely unaware as to what lies ahead. You do not want to look like a damn fool do you? They don't mean "jam" over the progression and don't hit any sour notes, they mean IMPROVISE as in jazz soloing as in Charlie Parker. Listen to me, if you want to stand a snowballs chance in hell DOWNLOAD or PURCHASE the music I reccomended to you plus any jazz you can find and listen to what they are doing and transcribe solos starting with say Miles' trumpet solo in "So What" off of the "Kind of Blue" CD. Only then will you possibly realize why people are so discouraging towards you. you are not playing over 12 BAR BLUES you are playing over JAZZ BLUES. You're not going to be playing E/A/B the whole time you are going to do jazz blues. Do you know what a seventh chord is? A chord substitution? I suggest you pick up the books I reccomended to you also. They are going to laugh at you if you start "jamming" over a 12 bar blues progression and expect to enter a colleges music minor program, unless your college is a community college.
Check out Todd Johnson's forum and his "Jazz Gym" articles and go ask questions over there.

Regarding reading I honestly reccomend Carol Kaye's Music Reading DVD it will start fom the basics and progress to sight reading tricky syncopated rythms. Do yourself a favor check out Carolkaye.com

When they want you to SIGHTREAD that means READ AT SIGHT not slowly work your way through roll the bones they mean READ what they throw in front of you on the spot.
No offense at all, but do you even know what a syncopated rythem is? What it looks like? What it sounds like?
I mean this is not meant to sound offensive if you do know what it is, good I'm just making sure.
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EDIT: Did not see you re-evaluated. EXCELLENT. Take the theory class study the hell out of it and learn on your own. Honestly I have taken a Music Theory I class and it wasn't so good don't rely on them to teach you sight reading syncopated rythems because In my experience they won't, they'll teach you VERY BASIC reading.

Also, don't try and learn "Crazy pieces to impress the professors" they dont give a **** how long you have been playing. Your going to come across like a wanker if you expect to impress professors playing WOOTEN an JACO.

No disrespect at all to WOOTEN and Jaco they are some of my idols, but do you know how many kids can impress with this technical bull snot? Professors couldn't give two ***** if you can slap and tap like crazy, they see that every day. They want someone who has great technique and can use it MUSICALLY in a band context.
Learn to groove: study Motown and Jamerson and listen to Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye if you want to impress your professors. Study creatingwalking bass lines over changes and swinging and soloing if you want to impress them. When I say SOLOING I mean BASS SOLO not SOLO BASS. Learn how to solo melodically over progressions a la Ray Brown or Ron Carter or other Jazz instrumentalists. Do not tap a scale over a song shred speed while double thumbing everything. This will just lead you to failure. I'm not saying don't learn these things I am just saying it will not impress you professors.

You are focusing too much on technique, focus on the music not the technique. You're are constantly talking of "Advanced Technique" People don't give a **** about your technique if you can't use it musically. Speaking about technique is like Painters discussing their brushes and how they swivel their wrist and what kind of frame they use. PEOPLE DON'T CARE they want to know about the painting and the inspiration for the PICTURE not the TECHNIQUE used in CREATING IT.

And Regarding Soloing, you may be into rush which is cool so am I, I seen them at the PNC last week, but its not the way to get you into college programs. You may not particularly enjoy Jazz, but it is the ultimate genre in learning soloing. In the words of Todd Johnson "You don't have to become a Jazz Musician, just in order to learn how to solo efficiently, but it is the best way of learning soloing just think of it like we are working out in a jazz gym. Jazz is the Gym we are using to bring our skillls up to par"

(Sorry to TJ for botching his quote)

Thats all I think I have to say for now

[JimmyM]

Why do I feel like my dad just entered the room?

There's a fine line between being honest and realistic, and being discouraging. Though I agree in principle with what you're saying, it seems a little heavy-handed and not so encouraging. I think a kid who sets such lofty goals is admirable. Unrealistic at this point and time, but admirable.

I will, however, agree with the part about learning Wooten and Jaco stuff to impress people at open mic nights. The goal is not to impress people at open mic nights or at Guitar Center when you try out basses. The goal is to make music. Learning how to play "Classical Thump" or "Donna Lee" is fun, but it's not going to make you a musician. There's a difference between being a bassist and being a musician. A bassist learns tough pieces to impress people. A musician learns tough pieces to understand how music is made. And there's a lot more value in learning how to MAKE your own basslines than there is in copying them. We learn other pieces of music in order to understand what goes into their construction so we can make our own music when we play with our own band. Youtube is full of people who can play Wooten stuff and they can play circles around me chopswise, but you can tell by the way they play it so mechanically that if you ask them to walk over changes, they're lost, and the ability to walk over changes is much more important and valuable for a bassist than playing "Donna Lee."

As far as sk8ter's points about technique, I have to respectfully disagree. Technique without feel is absolutely useless. Technique WITH feel is the key to unlocking what your mind hears and transferring it to your instrument. The end result (making good music) is what matters, but if your technique suffers, you may not be able to make the good music you hear in your head. Therefore, I'm all for good technique.

[sk8terguy316]

Jimmy M.

I am all for a balance between things and I believe that everybody should have excellent technique. I was just not articulating myself properly by stating that technique is not important, the music is. I meant that you shouldnt place too much stock on soley technique but realize that technique is a good tool to have to create music with, but the tool is not the product.

I am all for good technique I constantly practice playing clean and having good control over my instrument

There should be balance beetween practicing good technique and the music that you are creating with the technique. Because in the end that is all the technique is, a way to make music.

[MirageBass]

Yes, I do write my own music. But I learn all the tricks of the trade by learning advanced lines. I'm very critical of my own stuff, I don't consider them to be marvelous, but I use difficult lines so I can pick them apart piece by piece and adapt certain techniques and ideas to use in my own stuff. I don't consider Rush to be the pinnacle of hard basslines, but I never walk away from a Rush cover without having learned something useful, which I can't say for anybody else I've covered. And yes, technique is part of that.

I completely accept that I know jack **** about theory, jazz, and a lot of stuff. I'm still a greenhorn. I never thought that learning any of this stuff was going to be easy, and I understand how intimidating the whole thing is, which is why I'm taking a year to acquaint myself with it, if the fire is still burning. I was raised on motown, but I was always irked how people/programs can so readily dismiss anything that doesn't happen to be ridiculously technical. Music is very freeform, and, of all art forms, it is one where you can't say "you must" and "you can't". It isn't a constant like history, math, or science. Everything is totally subjective when it comes to being a "good musician", and we all have different definitions for that phrase. The same approach doesn't work as well for everybody. I completely understand the benefits of sight reading, and what you can get from recommended pieces, though, but I will never say someone is a lesser musician for not knowing them. I also see why you would need this information for an ensemble (we all have different definitions of what good art is, but if you're building a skyscraper, there's really no room for artistic interpretation with the structural integrity!), but never in terms of raw musicianship.

I'm not a technicality nazi when I say I want to learn those lines. In fact, a technicality nazi is what broke up my first and only band (someone who took loads of theory and had no ear for music, so he would write soulless, showy "progressive" songs that not only sounded awful, but for all that he was trying to show off, he couldn't even back it up onstage). As Wooten once said, "If you take a newborn baby and put them on the instrument, they're going to get sounds out of it that I can't get out of it, so we're all the best."

Pardon me if I'm taking these vibes a little too personally or foolishly, I'm rather tired and stressed right now.

[sk8terguy316]

Oh it is all good and I totally dig what you are saying about the subjectivity of music, and I don't believe, but I may be wrong that I anywhere stated that anybody was any less of a musician for not knowing the stuff. Your professors will not look at things the way you do though they will just see it necessary that you know all the skills.

[Scot]

I think you've probably made the right choice and pretty much agree with what the others are saying but...if the Jazz Band instructor/director is strapped to fill the bass chair, sees that you have the potential to get up to speed to play some or all of the charts and has the patience, resources and desire to help you get up to speed, you may have an opportunity.

On the other hand, if we're talking a place like UT or U of Miami you probably have at least a couple of years of catching up to do before they'll even look in your direction.

[MirageBass]

Originally Posted by Scot

I think you've probably made the right choice and pretty much agree with what the others are saying but...if the Jazz Band instructor/director is strapped to fill the bass chair, sees that you have the potential to get up to speed to play some or all of the charts and has the patience, resources and desire to help you get up to speed, you may have an opportunity.

On the other hand, if we're talking a place like UT or U of Miami you probably have at least a couple of years of catching up to do before they'll even look in your direction.

Rochester Institute of Technology. Not really a music school, but I'm sure they're going to have quite a few bass players auditioning. Just a hunch. If not, what the hey.

[Scot]

See if you can speak with the instructor. It couldn't hurt.

BTW - can you play the piece you posted the link to? A little off topic but here's a little tip to help improve your sightreading. Spend some time practicing reading the rhythms without the pitches. In some pieces, the hardest challenge will be making the appropriate position shifts and other concerns regarding playing the correct pitches while in others the challenge will be to nail tricky rhythmic phrases. That piece has a little of both so you might try to make sure you can nail the rhythm first (e.g., just clap the rhythm out with your hands).

Good luck!