Help with walkup and turnaround chord progressions please

[SR505bassman]

Sorry if this is covered elsewhere - I did search - but I am having some trouble being sure I understand some of the progressions that it has been recommended that I learn. the turnarounds include the 1 6 2 5 the 3 6 2 5 the walkup is the 2 5, and other progressions are 5 4 1 and 2 5 1.

Are these playing each note twice through the progression, as I have read? This makes sense when I play the turnarounds. I am least sure of the walkups. When researching, I read about walking up through scales to get from one chord to another. Is this what the 2 5 walkup is?

When discussing the swing groove, one poster suggested this progression:

1/4/1/1/4/4/1/1/2/5/1 6/2 5

Is this playing each note twice, or doing the common 12 bar pattern for each chord?

Thanks for any help clarifying this!

[Intenzity]

Everywhere there is a single number between the slashes, that chord gets 4 beats. That represents one bar in 4/4 time, each beat gets a quarter note, if we are talking a walking jazz line. When there are two chords between the slashes that represents 2 chords per bar, and so each chord gets two notes each.

So the progression you list, in the key of A would be:

/A7 * * */D7 * * */A7 * * */A7 * * * / D7 * * */D7 * * */A7 * * */A7 * * */
Bmin * * */E7 * * * /A7 * F#min7 */Bmin7 * E7 */

Each chord name or * represents a beat.

To make a bass line, you play the root on the first beat (usually) and then use notes from the chord or the scale, or passing notes to finish out the rest of the measure. There are literally millions and millions of combinations, and you pick your notes based on what kind of tune you are playing - classic blues, more jazzy, funky etc. Some tunes need just the notes of the chord, some need some spicey extra notes. It all depends. The "walk up" is probably describing a pattern that goes from the 2 chord to the 5 chord using the notes of the scale, it is probably a pattern that goes something like (again in A)

B D E G# - root, b3, root, third.
or
B Eb E Ab (more jazzy) Root, passing tone, root, passing tone.
or
B D E Ab etc etc. This is where you can try all the different combinations and go on forever.

[MalcolmAmos]

Good information. Here is what I try to do.
/A7 * * */D7 * * */A7 * * */A7 * * * / D7 * * */D7 * * */A7 * * */A7 * * */
Bmin * * */E7 * * * /A7 * F#min7 */Bmin7 * E7 */

OK I look first for generic bass lines I can use over all the chords. Why? If I can use just one pattern over all the chords taking that pattern into a groove is pretty easy. If I have to change my pattern often the groove develops a little slower, if at all. So....
I've got a bunch of major dominant seventh chords. A generic bass line for those can be R-3-5-b7. Or any of those notes, i.e. just roots would work. R-5-R-5 would work. R-R-3-b7 will work. As mentioned the list of what could be used runs to the hundreds quickly. Some say grab two roots, i.e. R-R then two chord tones. What two chord tones? Well, 3, 5, 8, b7 - kinda up to you. R-R-8-8 is safe.

One easy thing is to have a generic major pattern and a generic minor pattern in muscle memory. Pretty easy to identify if the chord is major or minor.... then grab your favorite pattern.
Major pattern R-3-5-6 The 6 is neutral the R is generic all cords have a root. All major chords have a 3 and all basic chords have a 5 so... that is a pretty safe generic major chord bass line. Another safe major pattern would be R-2-3-5. The 2 is a good passing note just do not land on it. Now with our major chords being all dominant sevenths I'd rely upon R-3-5-b7.
Minor pattern R-b3-5-b7 works great for the Bm7 and F#m7, and then for the Bm - something like R-b3-5-b3 would work. Same reason R is generic b3 is generic for minor cords - the 5 is generic and in that progression b7 would be OK except for the Bm chord. Another minor pattern using the 2 could be R-2-b3-5. Notice the fingering on this is a piece of cake.
Might have a generic pattern for the diminished chord, like G#m7b5 in muscle memory R-b3-b5-b7 will work for any 1/2 diminished chord.

Somewhere between roots and your favorite major or minor pattern lie a lot of bass lines. Yes, walk up or walk down chromatic runs major 3, 4, #4, 5. Minor b3, 4, #4, 5. Or target the next root, miss it, and walk chromatically to it. Be there on the 4th beat.

Have fun.

[tjh]

MalcolmAmos, nice post .. very similar to what I started doing a little while back ... has worked out well ... we do like our little favs

[SR505bassman]

Thanks so much for the helpful information! This explains my questions pretty well I will work on this a bit and see if it also makes sense to me in practice

Man I love this site! Hopefully someday I can give back half of what I'm learning - thanks again

[subexpression]

In jazz as well as blues, the turnaround measures have a lot of activity and really solidify the section with strong harmonic structure.
Here's a couple examples for turnarounds which use chord tones and a few passing tones.
4 quarter notes per measure:

1, 6, 2, 5
I7 -> VI7 -> ii7 -> V7
A7 -> F#7 -> Bm7 -> E7
G |---------|---------|---------|---------|
D |---5-----|-4-------|-----4---|---------|
A |-----7-8-|---7-4---|---5---6-|-7-5-----|
E |-5-------|-------6-|-7-------|-----7-4-|


3 6 2 5 is typically two ii7-V7 turnarounds linked together.
The 3 6 half is a ii7 -> V7 starting on the 3rd scale degree instead of the 2nd.

3, 6, 2, 5
iii7 -> VI7 -> ii7 -> V7
C#m7 -> F#7 -> Bm7 -> E7
G |---------|---------|---------|---------|
D |-----6-5-|-4-------|-----4---|---------|
A |-4-7-----|---7-4---|---5---8-|-7-5-----|
E |---------|-------6-|-7-------|-----7-4-|
(note, the F#7 is dominant, and isn't diatonic, but it's common in jazz to have a dominant chord on the VI)




Several ii7 -> V7 turnarounds
Bm7 -> E7
G |-4-------|---------|
D |---7-4-5-|-6-------|
A |---------|---5-6-7-|
E |---------|---------|

G |---------|---------|
D |---------|-----2---|
A |-2-------|---2---5-|
E |---5-2-3-|-4-------|

G |---------|---------|
D |---------|---------|
A |---8-5-6-|-7-------|
E |-7-------|---4-5-7-|

G |---------|---------|
D |---------|---------|
A |---5-----|---------|
E |-7---7-5-|-4-0-3-4-|

G |---------|---------|
D |-----4-3-|-2-4-5-6-|
A |-2-5-----|---------|
E |---------|---------|

G |---------|---------|
D |-------4-|-------6-|
A |-----5---|-5-6-7---|
E |-5-7-----|---------|


The possibilities are endless!

Play through these and you'll get an idea of the harmonic structure of the chords.

Good luck

[SR505bassman]

Thank you subexpression - seeing this out in tab is very helpful - and thank you for your ideas with turnarounds! I may just make it up on stage for a jam session yet!

Thanks again to all who have posted here for your help.

Happy holidays to you and yours

[ryco]

The Aebersold free Jazz Handbook has some good info on turnarounds

and I found his Play-Along Turnarounds, Cycles & ii-V7s to be very helpful! good price too!

[sleepytime]

I happened to think of this tune off the top of my head. The choruses that don't have a stop in bar 11 have a simple 1 6 2 5 turnaround.

Frosty

[subexpression]

Originally Posted by ryco

The Aebersold free Jazz Handbook has some good info on turnarounds

and I found his Play-Along Turnarounds, Cycles & ii-V7s to be very helpful! good price too!

That does look like a good one

I have this one: VOLUME 3 - THE II/V7/I PROGRESSION
After getting a solid grasp of the ii/V7/I progression, it's smooth sailing since it's found in so many jazz standards.

[subexpression]

Don't forget the Minor 2-5-1!
In jazz, there two primary types of 2-5-1 progressions: Major and Minor
Both have the same root movement, but the chord qualities of the 2 and the 1 are different.
It's crucial to have this one in your toolbox!

The 2 is a half-diminished 7th chord (m7b5)
The 5 is a dominant 7th chord
The 1 is minor 7th chord

iiø7 -> V7 -> im7
Bm7b5 -> E7 -> Am7
G |---------|---------|---------|
D |---------|-----6---|---------|
A |-----5-8-|-7-8---7-|-------7-|
E |-7-8-----|---------|-5-7-8---|

G |-4-------|---------|---------|
D |---7-----|---------|-------5-|
A |-----8-5-|-7-5-----|-----7---|
E |---------|-----7-4-|-5-8-----|

G |----------|---------|---------|
D |----------|-----5-6-|-7-5-----|
A |--------8-|-7-8-----|-----7---|
E |-7-8-10---|---------|-------8-|

G |---------|---------|---------|
D |---------|-------6-|-7-------|
A |-------5-|-7-5-7---|---7---7-|
E |-7-5-7---|---------|-----5---|

G |---------|---------|--------9-|
D |-----7---|---6-9---|-7-9-10---|
A |---8---8-|-7-----7-|----------|
E |-7-------|---------|----------|

G |---------|---------|---------|
D |---------|---------|---------|
A |---5-----|---------|---3-2---|
E |-7---7-5-|-4-0-1-4-|-5-----5-|

G |-----4-7-|-----4-7-|---5-4---|
D |---7-----|---6-----|-7-----7-|
A |-8-------|-7-------|---------|
E |---------|---------|---------|

G |-4-7-4---|---------|---------|
D |-------7-|-6-----6-|-7-------|
A |---------|---5-7---|---------|
E |---------|---------|---------|

[subexpression]

Here's a few 5-4-1 turnarounds with both Dominant 7th and Minor 7th chords:

Dominant 7th Chords
V7 -> IV7 -> I7
E7 -> D7 -> A7
G |---------|---------|---------|
D |---6-----|---------|---------|
A |-7---7-6-|-5-------|---------|
E |---------|---2-3-4-|-5-------|

G |---------|---------|---------|
D |---------|---4-5-6-|-7-------|
A |-7-----4-|-5-------|---------|
E |---4-7---|---------|---------|

G |---------|---------|---------|
D |---6-5-4-|---------|---------|
A |-7-------|-5-2-3-5-|---------|
E |---------|---------|-5-------|

G |---------|---------|---------|
D |-------2-|---4-5---|---------|
A |-----2---|-5-------|---------|
E |-0-4-----|-------4-|-5-------|

Minor 7th Chords
v7 -> iv7 -> i7
Em7 -> Dm7 -> Am7
G |---------|---------|---------|
D |---5-----|---------|---------|
A |-7---7-6-|-5-------|---------|
E |---------|---8-3-4-|-5-------|

G |---------|---------|---------|
D |-2-------|---------|---------|
A |-------2-|-5-------|---------|
E |---3-5---|---1-3-4-|-5-------|

G |---------|---------|---------|
D |---5-----|---3-5-6-|-7-------|
A |-7---3-4-|-5-------|---------|
E |---------|---------|---------|

G |---------|---------|---------|
D |---------|-----5-6-|-7-------|
A |-7-6-5---|-5-8-----|---------|
E |-------8-|---------|---------|


lots of options!

[SR505bassman]

Great information - thanks again! It's interesting, as I am trying some of these out, I'm finding that I was already playing some of them by ear, just had not thought about what they were called These are really helpful as I continue to work on my jazz chops Thanks!

[subexpression]

I'm glad it's working out well for you!

All the examples I posted are stuff I improvised, so it's not copyrighted or out of any book. You're free to take anything and do what you want with it, modify it, etc.

Of course, you'll probably find similar turnarounds in books. We're all playing with the same building blocks and there's bound to be overlap somewhere.

If you can play keyboards or guitar, or you know someone who can, play through or record the chords so you can really solidify what's happening harmonically while you're walking through the patterns.

There's a few programs like "Band In A Box" where you can set up measures with chords...and make your own play-a-long audio recording. Guitar Pro is another which works really well (I use GP). It's great for creating an accompaniment when you're practicing alone.

[SR505bassman]

Subexpression - Thanks again for your examples - they really are helpful. I have played guitar for a long time and a little piano, and have been using them as you suggest - it does help - I'm a very visual learner! Just trying to get a feel for becoming more flexible on the fly to know what lines I can play over a given chord while also thinking about leading up to the next chord. I know this will come in time, but I keep looking for some "pattern" or epiphany where I will suddenly (finally) "see" how this all works and fits together

Ryco - thanks for the tip on the Aebersold jazz handbook - I have seen this mentioned before - thanks for the link - it looks really useful

[subexpression]

YW!
One of the hard parts will be to identify the use of chromatic passing tones and how they can embellish scales & chord tones...and gives a smoother walking sound.
The best walking lines have small steps...the interval leaps between notes...and chord tones don't always maximize stepwise motion. I'm not the best at writing these types of lines, but it helps to have a stock list to build from.

If you can, try to eliminate the chromatic passing tones, and just examine the chord tones and how they lead into one another. Those passing tones can be confusing!

Also if you can, try to transpose these patterns into more keys. Since they're in "A", it's pretty easy to shift them up or down the neck...or develop new fingerings with the same basic patterns.

Good luck again!

- s

[Stumbo]

Here are a few links you may want to check out:
Intro scale & chord theory
Walking bass line examples
Ed Friedland on walking bass lines
TB's Ed Fuqua's walking bass line book


Playing over ii V I progression
3rds & 7ths?
Tri Tone Substitutions
Walking bass lines examples
Walking bass lines books

Creating bass lines
Target Approach