Help with year two: mastering the groove!

[NickInMesa]

Last year's resolution: get back to playing bass, go past the level I had when I quit in my 20s, join a band and gig.

Done on all counts.

I got back into it, better tone and I play play faster that I used to. I learned a bit of theory over the last year, much that i ever did before.

What really made me progress was joining not one, but two bands, and forcing myself to learn songs. Tabs at first, but then mostly my ears. I would have a hard time to cover Rush or RHCP songs, but I can pretty much nail Plush and Interstate Love Song by STP, which are not easy easy (and yes, there are tabs, but they are not accurate).

Why two bands? Because the first one is taking too long to get their stuff together and because I learn my songs faster. Note that I practice one or two hours a day, except on brand practice day, as it's about enough practice for oen day. Second band was a ready to gig metal cover band whose bassist just flaked out and I was happy to be a spare tire, and the reward was my first gig after 1 year (re)starting the instrument.

This year's resolution: mastering the groove. Seriously, covering songs is nice and it's very fulfilling, gets me to try new styles of music, teaches me to play with others, that's really cool, but I need to learn to play better, much better, on my own.

So what do you guys suggest as a training program from now on?

And yes, I know it's a lifetime commitment!!!

[Silky Sam]

I'd love to hear this too. Year two will be this March, but after playing drums for a very long time. The "grove" is what's missing. So far, just trying to play it correctly is what I've been aiming for.

[NickInMesa]

Well there's going to be a lot of scales worked on For a start...

[DudeistMonk]

Maybe I'm a little confused, are you looking to get into playing groove oriented stuff like funk and soul? or are you using groove as a term for playing your own stuff, improvising and developing a sound?

If you wanna master groove you gotta get into some groovy stuff. There is a lot of simple easy to learn funky/groovy stuff like Cake or The Meters...groove has is roots in R&B so you can look there too, I'm just not well educated in the genre aside from a few tunes that have been spoon fed to me like Sir Duke.

An instructor is the best option if you can afford it.

Ps. Yeah Interstate is a bit of a pain, I remember that song taking me awhile to learn.

[NickInMesa]

Not groove as in funk/r&b but more in how to deliver some good and varied bass lines that make people go "ooh yeah!"

How to improvize, even over pre-existing lines, by adding some tasty variations.

You know

As for the STP stuff, I just practice it over the recording and listen to the recording several times until I want to puke.

When you deliver the flipping bass line exactly like on the recording, you usually get some good positive nods.

[MNAirHead]

Buy a shaker $2.. PM me and I'll send you a click track mp3.. then do this until it's driven you nuts. 40bpm up to 200bpm

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S-L-O-W muted scales & arps practice with a metronome.

Most goofs think they'll get better with speed.. you can't fake a slow pulse.

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For groove -- listen to players with pauses and ghosting --- not goofs doing 2 handed tapping.

[jmattbassplaya]

Bass and drum jams with a very solid drummer. That alone makes me progress faster than anything else when it comes to learning how to groove.

[mokkat]

slow is the way to go, if you cant groove slowly, you cant do it fast.

less is more, pauses and ghost notes are your friend.

start listening to the masters for inspiration.
Rocco Prestia from Tower of Power for instance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJwwU...eature=related
or this guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc0uxg40V70

[dalconthenovice]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

Bass and drum jams with a very solid drummer. That alone makes me progress faster than anything else when it comes to learning how to groove.

+1

playing with a solid drummer who knows how to really "pocket" his playing will really develop your ability to stay with the groove, find a drummer friend and have personal one on one jam time with him, drummers love jamming with bass players anyways (atleast any respective drummer) because bassists really develop they're ability to pocket and groove themselves

i can't stress it enough!! i played for three years before i found my best friend (a drummer) and we started jamming together by ourselves that my playing really started to grooooooooOOOOooooove

[MNAirHead]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

Bass and drum jams with a very solid drummer. That alone makes me progress faster than anything else when it comes to learning how to groove.

Interesting..

I just had a private lesson with one of the more prominent legend guys.

He suggested 100% against this (playing with a drummer) while developing groove.

He pointed out my mistakes could be burried under the activity of a drummer and a click track will amplify timing and space issues. He showed the before/on/after beat grooves that a drumer would compensate for.

I'm starting to believe he pointed out one of the break throughs in my playing.

Tim

[Bootzilla]

I say get into jazz and learn some motown lines. Jazz will teach you to swing and it will put theory into perspective (it's ALL about the chords and less about the scales). Furthermore when you understand what theory IS and what it is used for that can greatly infuse your creativity (if you don't know how to use theory you will just sit there thinking what notes are in the key and play random key notes all day long).

Motown lines are just damn funky and creative in both rhythm and melody.

[sikamikanico]

0. get a P-bass

1. listen to groovy music. soul, funk etc... you know, Motown, James Brown, The Meters... it helps when you listen to groovy music... this is also a good start, hehe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncOfAoDQbQk

2. when my teacher told me to start thinking in the 16th notes, everything changed for me... that doesn't mean to play every 16th note, of course but with pauses, you get some incredibly funky stuff!

3. practice with a drum machine... and I mean practice programming it too!! I usually just play with this one: http://www.rinki.net/pekka/monkey/ but it is getting limiting... I often try to program a basic pattern of a song I know... that's how I try to understand what the drummer is doing... and don't forget to experiment with tempos! I often stay within the 80-100 BPM and don't get bored...

this is my 2 cents, many things work... getting a teacher would probably be the best advice... also a book or two would help a lot... even youtube and talkbass are great resources, although you need a lot of time to extract useful info...

[NickInMesa]

Thanks for all the advice...

I have one P-bass, a Peavey Fury, but a P-bass was my very first bass and I like a clean punchy bridge single coil pickup type of sound.

A good thing I have is that I can listen to a bass groove and emulate some of it, but I miss the "what to play" part.

I also tend to have habits. Once I have an idea of a good groove, I will repeat it forever and I end up annoying myself playing it.

I always play over recording or the beat from my Pandora. I did not have that type of tool when I was a teen and that's why I did not really improve back then.

[varunkapahi]

Originally Posted by mokkat

slow is the way to go, if you cant groove slowly, you cant do it fast.

less is more, pauses and ghost notes are your friend.

start listening to the masters for inspiration.
Rocco Prestia from Tower of Power for instance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJwwU...eature=related
or this guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc0uxg40V70

+1
am trying to work on similar stuff too

[Bootzilla]

Originally Posted by NickInMesa

Thanks for all the advice...

I like a clean punchy bridge single coil pickup type of sound.

Haven't they told you you can't groove with a single coil bridge? It's ALL about the neck pickup, preferably a P.

To get out of the rut try to "move" more in your bass playing. Maybe just pick up the bass and try to not think about scales or chords and just try to improvise a line (just do a 4/4 and play every quarter note on every beat) that moves around the fretboard. Explore the sounds and intervals on there and make a journey. Even if you don't think about what you can and can't play after a while you get a feeling for what sounds good. This can give you inspiration for finding grooves and it will improve your feel.

[NickInMesa]

Originally Posted by Bootzilla

Haven't they told you you can't groove with a single coil bridge? It's ALL about the neck pickup, preferably a P.

That's because I am a rocker A Jazz-type heavy on the bridge cuts through the mix, especially when the guitarist has a Duel Rectifier in full scream mode.

Does not mean I can't be a rocker who grooves.

And no, I am not married to any of the two bands I play with. I can cheat on them with a groovy lineup.

[Chasarms]

Groove is a mostly ambiguous term. While there are certainly youngsters who groove with the best, I think the average shmo finds groove with experience and knowledge. The more you can take the real-time calculations out of your playing, the smoother it gets, IMO AND IME.

At this point, my best suggestion would be to get away, as much as humanly possible, from the idea of learning songs. Avoid tabs and add a new approach to playing.

I know far too many mostly self-taught musicians who have mostly committed to learning song after song, and sound great, IF THEY KNOW THE SONG. Otherwise, they are useless.

Study some theory. Nothing too hardcore - just basic chord concepts, etc. Once you get the basic idea, get some chord CHARTS to a few tunes that you have some familiarity with but don't know that well. Play along with the track and work on forming a line based only on the chord information. Then start playing off charts to tunes that are less familiar.


Add to that some ear training to begin to hear intervals. That allows you to pick up progressions by ear without the aide of the charts.

If you progress nicely in these areas this year, you will become MUCH more valued as a bass player, and I suggest you will also enjoy playing much more. Plus, these skills will allow you to learn much more quickly even in times when you want or have to pretty much clone the line off the recording. You'll understand why the line is as it is and be able to throw out the "wrong" notes more easily.

[rosanne]

Thanks for posting this Nick. I'm also trying to improve my groove. I listen to a lot of Pino, Meters etc and play along but still haven't got the hang of it when I do original material.

I've studied theory, and can play along to a chord chart. I know where my chord tones are, so that's not the problem. The problem for me is knowing *when* to ghost, *when* to leave space, *when* to hold the line over into the next bar - all the *whens*. Certainly there are no hard and fast rules for these things but I'm hoping to get some pointers!

[jellymax]

use a metronome. develop solid time. what if you played a duet with a singer,
just bass & singer. you would have to groove, have a steady pulse, & fit
right in with singing. this is how you should think with the band as well.
everyone's parts should hold up on its own. savvy? it is helpful to cut the metronome beat in half, then count
it as 2 & 4. (no click on 1 & 3, just you) once you are confident.

then you can start to experiment with rests, staccato notes, etc...

[NickInMesa]

Originally Posted by Chasarms

Study some theory. Nothing too hardcore - just basic chord concepts, etc. Once you get the basic idea, get some chord CHARTS to a few tunes that you have some familiarity with but don't know that well. Play along with the track and work on forming a line based only on the chord information. Then start playing off charts to tunes that are less familiar.

I actually do that. There are plenty of songs I learned from figuring out the chord progression.

Guitarists always know tons of tunes, since their #1 goal is to impress their girlfriend. I will try to guess the chords by either listening or looking at their hands, or both, and then improvise something.

Tabs suck. Very rarely are they something the real thing, and it's usually true for RHCP or Rush, but for the rest, bass tabs are either simple as can be or simply dead wrong. I laugh at some of them, and the worst part is that they are copied by other dudes who put their names on them.

As I said, when I learn songs, I use my ears and learn from the recording mostly. Learning songs teach you some stuff, and allows you to play in a band because most "midlife crisis bands" (as I call them) are cover bands.

I think that after a year of doing that I need to move towards a different style of bass playing or else I'm just going to be a human bass sequencer, which is somewhat rewarding, but a bassist who does not know how to groove is only half a bassist.