Hi, can someone check if I've got these scales right. Thnx

[Dickie_uk]

Or can you suggest a different/better way of playing them?

Also what other common scales should I know?

[JTE]

They're right as far as they go, but this is just fingering. It's not really "knowing" the scale, and fingering IMO is the LEAST important part of "knowing" a scale.

Do you know what the notes are in A Major? Do you know WHY it's those notes and not others? Do you know why it's an F# and not a Gb?

And after you get through these things, can YOU find the scale (that is, NOT look it up on a fingering chart) and figure out how to play it in any position?

That's what knowing a scale is. So keep up the good start you've made here, but understand what it's really about too.

John

[BassChuck]

JTE is totally right. AND.... if you can get off tab and learn to read notation, all that information he talks about will be right in front of you. Standard notation is the way to go.

[sammyp]

there are lots of minor scales ...so you want to learn to define them ....the one you have is natural minor or aeolian mode! there's also harmonic, melodic and the other minor modes!

[JTE]

Originally Posted by sammyp

there are lots of minor scales ...so you want to learn to define them ....the one you have is natural minor or aeolian mode! there's also harmonic, melodic and the other minor modes!

Yeah, but in general parlance, if someone says "minor scale" the natural minor is assumed, so that's OK. And in my experience, actually using harmonic or melodic minor scales has been an exercise without much practical utility in either performing music or learning the instrument so that's OK in my book.

As for modes, I think there're already enough threads here that discuss them at length (and ad nauseum) that it won't be too productive. Again, I firmly believe one is MUCH better served to totally OWN the diatonic major scale, than to be be able to play a lot of other scales without the core knowledge I listed in my first post.

There are two other things I believe are paramount importance in really LEARNING a scale. First, the KEY isn't as critical as knowing the scale. So, don't think of A as any different than Bb except for the starting note. Because you need to be able to play any scale in any position, learning just fingering patterns doesn't help much. Therefore don't think that getting these finger patterns in the OP down and then learning fingering patterns for Eb major is learning a new scale.

Second, and most critical of all, is learn to think of the scales in intervals, and to see the thirds stacked up.

Search for "progression of theory" threads for a complete exposition on this topic too...

John

[jmattbassplaya]

Learn the basic scales and then go into chordal theory. It'll serve you much better as a bassist (IME, IMHO, YMMV).

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by JTE

......Second, and most critical of all, is learn to think of the scales in intervals, and to see the thirds stacked up. Search for "progression of theory" threads for a complete exposition on this topic too...
John

In case you need it. Here is how to stack 3rds. File this away, it'll come in handy later.

What chords are made from a scale? And what are we to do with those chords? And why is that important? If we build our bass line from the notes of the chord we are going to harmonize the melody line and the bass line - make them sound good together. So if we know the intervals in the chord being used in the song - and play them - we are going to have a bass line that harmonizes and sounds good with what is happening in the song.

Take the scale then by skipping a note - stacking 3rds - you build the chords for that scale. Stacking 3rds is an easy way to identify the notes within the chords of that scale. From that you can then - using the chord’s spelling name the chord, i.e. 3 = major, b3 = minor, 7 = maj7, b7 = dominant seventh or minor seventh, m7b5 = ½ diminished, b5 bb7 = Diminished, etc. From there you can identify that specific chord’s function within the key, i.e. I-IV-V, etc. This chart can be used as a study of how chords are formed.

A Major A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#, A
Note	Chord		Spelling	Chord Name		Function
A	A-C#-E-G#	R-3-5-7		Amaj7			I	Tonic									
B	B-D-F#-A	R-b3-5-b7	Bm7			ii
C#	C#-E-G#-B	R-b3-5-b7	C#m7			iii
D	D-F#-A-C#	R-3-5-7		Dmaj7			IV     Subdominant
E	E-G#-B-D	R-3-5-b7	E7			V      Dominant
F#	F#-A-C#-E	R-b3-5-b7	F#m7			iv
G#	G#-B-D-F#	R-b3-b5-b7	G#m7b5			vii ½ dim

The B chord in the key of A needs to be a minor chord we all know that. Look how stacking 3rds illustrates how this happens...... Look at the spelling. The B major scale = B, C#, D# E, F#, G# A# and you came up with B, D, F#, A. Your D and A have been flatted, thus turned into a minor chord, in fact a minor seventh chord. Neat... How about using that for a bass line - R-b3-5-b7 under the Bm7 chord. Yep, scales are important and let our fingers know how to move around the fretboard and get our ear used to which notes sound good together, however, most of the time scales are used to play the melody. As our instrument is an accompaniment instrument we play chord tones 90% of the time, thus chord tone intervals become important to bassists.

File this away in your reference binder. Keep working on your scales for now, but, give some thought to also putting some chord tone bass lines into muscle memory. See a Bm7 chord and know that the intervals of R-b3-5-b7 will make a good bass line for that chord.

When you need a refresher on how to stack 3rds reach into your three ring reference binder and pull out the sheet you filled away.

Major Scale Box. 

G|---2---|-------|---3---|---4---| 1st string
D|---6---|-------|---7---|---8---|
A|---3---|---4---|-------|---5---|
E|-------|---R---|-------|---2---|4th string

Good luck.

[JTE]

BTW, I find it more visually useful to actually STACK the thirds instead of write them out sideways like MalcomAmos does. It's just a visual thing, but it does more closely resemble what you'll see on the staff with written notes...

I teach it this way...
First, write out the scale (actually write it out long hand on paper for yourself, leave a lot of room above where you write it)

C D E F G A B C

Then above that write it out again starting on the third
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Then add another third up above that...
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

And one more time...
B C D E F G A B
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

This is in my estimation the most important part of learning a scale. This explains WHY the ii chord is minor7, the V is a dominant 7, the IV is a major 7, etc. Instead of memorizing that the chords in a major scale are Maj7, min7, min7, Maj7, 7, min7, and min7b5, this tells you WHY and you'll always be able to figure it out for yourself.

This is the foundation of harmony.

John

[BassGen]

Malcolm Amos and JTE, I humbly thank-you for this help! I'm working on it myself but these are great tools that will help further my own growth!

[longfinger]

Excellent advice Malcolm Amos and JTE.
For those who are interested, I'd recommend taking the chords to their 13th. Stacking thirds over two full octaves until you return to the tonic. This will help solidify how the extensions of the chord up above (9-11-13), are also the passing and neighbour tones down below (2-4-6).

The diatonic scales are the foundation, 7 notes spaced in seconds in 1 octave.
Expanded, they become chords of thirds, 7 notes spaced in thirds over 2 octaves.


for instance:

(high)
C D E F G A B C
A B C D E F G A
F G A B C D E F
D E F G A B C D
B C D E F G A B
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C
(low)


It also allows us to define what chord extensions are altered and what are natural in a particular case.

[Dickie_uk]

Hi,
Thankyou all for the bloody excellent advice. I see what you mean about stacking thirds. I can see now how chord progressions are formed.

I have saved your advice to my archive.

Before I thought the songwriter just stuck any old chords together!

[PhiDeck]

Originally Posted by JTE

As for modes, I think there're already enough threads here that discuss them at length (and ad nauseum) that it won't be too productive.

John,

It's "ad nauseam".

I struggle to repress my pedantic grammar police tendencies, but your signature - "Spelling, grammar, and punctuation do matter, ..." - gives me a free pass.

Philip

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by Dickie_uk

Hi,
Before I thought the songwriter just stuck any old chords together!

Some hints, facts, etc. that may help.

• For the melody and the chord line to sound good the melody line and the chord line should share like notes. When this happens you get harmonization. Which is the ultimate goal. So if the melody is using the C, D, E, G & A notes what chord will fit under them? How about C major? It's notes are C-E-G more than enough for harmonization. If the D & A are passing notes they are just adding color so once we've got this measure harmonized with the C chord - move on and see what notes the melody is now using - and then find a chord that will harmonize the new melody notes. It's possible that the C chord may fit with the melody notes for several measures. When it no longer has like notes, yes, start looking for a chord that will harmonize the new melody notes. Drum Roll --- that's why we change chords.
  
  
• Each scale will have three major chords, three minor chords and one diminished chord made from it's notes. The I IV V chords will have every note in I's scale. So one of those three chords - sooner or later - will harmonize any melody made from I's scale. That's why the I-IV-V chord progression has harmonized a zillion songs.
  
  
• C scale and it's relative minor Am scale have the same notes. Also have the same chords. If you use primarily the major chords in your chord progression your tonal center will be C major. If however you used the minor chords primarily in your song the tonal center would then be Am. Take pencil and paper and figure it out. That fish thing.

Here is a little something on how chords like to move to other chords. If we let them do what they like it'll sound good. If Mommas happy the family is happy.

• The I tonic can go anywhere in the progression it wants to, however, when you go to the I chord you release any tension you have built. Are you ready to start a new thought or a new verse?
  
  
• The ii chord is minor and also a sub dominant chord. It's task in life is to move to a dominant chord. It's also known as the minor super tonic chord and used quite a lot as ii-V7-I in jazz music. Notice the ii is moving to a dominant chord.
  
  
• The iii chord is also minor and is a lead to chord, i.e. the iii is often used as the start chord in a turn-a-round iii-vi-ii-V7-I. The iii chord likes to drag the vi chord with it.
  
  
• The IV chord is major and is also a sub dominant chord. It's task in life is to move to a dominant chord - much like the ii chord. Thus the ii and IV chord can substitute for each other as they have the same function, to move to a dominant chord. Think about this. Would you hook the ii and IV together? You can do most anything you want, however, as both have the same function - wanting to move to a dominant chord hooking the two together has not moved the progression along in it's journey. Any chord progression should have a journey from I rest to IV tension to V7 climax then to I resolution and back to rest. That's kinda important read it again.
  
  
• The V chord is the dominant chord. It's task in life is to get to the I tonic chord. The V is the second most important chord. Second only to the I tonic chord. Think of it as the climax chord. You build tension and then bring in the V chord to bring everything to a climax - and then quickly go to the I tonic to release the tension and resolve back to the I tonic. Adding a b7 making the V7 chord increases the tension and the V7 wants to get to the I tonic RIGHT NOW.
  
  
• The vi chord is the relative minor chord. It's task in life is to move to a sub dominant chord (the ii or IV). I-vi-IV-V7-I.
  
  
• The viidim chord is the diminished chord and it too is a dominant chord. Plus also having a b3 or minor duty as well. The viidim likes to move to the I tonic, however, it likes to take a more round about way of getting there. It is normally the lead to the iii chord in a turn-a-round. So if you want to resolve and go to the I chord right now use the V7, however, if you want the viidim to lead you on a more round about way - use the viidim. The V and viidim like the ii and IV have the same function and can be substituted for each other.

The number one rule in harmony is that the melody line and the chord line should share like notes so it's a balancing act of moving the verse along in it's rest, tension, climax, resolution and return to rest journey it must take AND at the same time have the chord you choose have/share like notes with the melody so harmonization can take place.

Hopefully the songwriter has taken all this into account. Think about this. If the songwriter has the melody line and the chord line harmonizing, and we know the chords he/she is using, if we draw our bass line from the chords notes we will stay in harmony with what the rest of the band is doing. That's why people tell us to follow the chord progression. Nail the changes and play root on 1.

Yep file this away. Have fun.

[Dickie_uk]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Some hints, facts, etc. that may help.

Thankyou so much, what you've wriiten is so helpful. I'd trawlled through loads of websites and books and not found anything nearly as good. I won't pretend I've fully absorbed it all but I am a lot wiser this evening. And I'll work through till I understand it all.

Cheers!

[JTE]

Originally Posted by PhiDeck

John,

It's "ad nauseam".

I struggle to repress my pedantic grammar police tendencies, but your signature - "Spelling, grammar, and punctuation do matter, ..." - gives me a free pass.

Philip

Indeed! Hoist again by my own petard! I didn't give you a free pass but rather an opportunity to correct me.

Thank you!!

John

[Lacuga]

Originally Posted by JTE

Indeed! Hoist again by my own petard! I didn't give you a free pass but rather an opportunity to correct me.

Thank you!!

John

Good sport.

[Dickie_uk]

QUOTE="JTE"]BTW,

And one more time...
B C D E F G A B
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

This is in my estimation the most important part of learning a scale. This explains WHY the ii chord is minor7, the V is a dominant 7, the IV is a major 7, etc. Instead of memorizing that the chords in a major scale are Maj7, min7, min7, Maj7, 7, min7, and min7b5, this tells you WHY and you'll always be able to figure it out for yourself.

This is the foundation of harmony.

John[/quote]


Thanks, I like this way of looking at, you can see the chords instantly.

I'm still slightly confsed though? From the bottom three lines triad chords are formed? And adding the top line you add the 'seventh' to the triad? And as LONGFINGER says adding more lines results in the 9th, 11th and 13th being added to the triad? Does for example adding a fifth line make the chord a 7th AND 9th chord or is it just called a 9th chord. AND with a 9th chord the chords is made up from 5 notes? And an 11th chord 6 notes?

In the attached picture I've had for a while it doesn't mention chords with added intervals. Is it because it in say the key of 'C' you were moving from the Root (C chord) to the Second then Third interval, you could use a EITHER a Dm, Dm7 then EITHER a Em or Em7?

As long as the your using the correct chord (major or minor) in the correct place in a progression it doesn't matter whether that chord is a TRIAD or a triad with an ADDED interval? Is that right?

[Dickie_uk]

Can I add one extra thing please.

As I said before you've all given me excellent advice and I was wondering if there are any books you would recommend to me.

Rather than just learning things parrot fashion, I want to learn the WHY and HOW if that makes sense.

A book along the lines of how you've all explained things would be great. Why don't you collaberate on an writing one. I'll buy the 1st edition :-)

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by Dickie_uk

QUOTE="JTE"]...........
I'm still slightly confused though? From the bottom three lines triad chords are formed? And adding the top line you add the 'seventh' to the triad? And as LONGFINGER says adding more lines results in the 9th, 11th and 13th being added to the triad? Does for example adding a fifth line make the chord a 7th AND 9th chord or is it just called a 9th chord. AND with a 9th chord the chords is made up from 5 notes? And an 11th chord 6 notes?

I think of it this way. We've got several octaves involved here.
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7,. 8, 9,.10..11.12.13 etc. etc. etc.
C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D,. E,. F, .G, A, B, C, D, E, F, etc.
8 and 1 are the same note one octave higher.
9 and 2 are the same note one octave higher.
10 and 3 are the same note one octave higher.
So you could extend notes on out forever. But, up pops one problem - we only have five fingers so we have to start deciding which to leave out --- if we want to have the higher octave notes. Begs why do we need the higher octave notes? IMO we bassists don't except in a solo. Again that is IMO. Chord Formulas

In the attached picture I've had for a while it doesn't mention chords with added intervals. Is it because it in say the key of 'C' you were moving from the Root (C chord) to the Second then Third interval, you could use a EITHER a Dm, Dm7 then EITHER a Em or Em7?

Yes. Jazz will add the 7, 9, 11 & 13, however, dirt simple Pop, Rock or Country will just stick with the basic ole triads. They will make the V chord a V7, but that is about as fancy as they get.

As long as the your using the correct chord (major or minor) in the correct place in a progression it doesn't matter whether that chord is a TRIAD or a triad with an ADDED interval? Is that right?

IMO right. Again if you are laying down a bass line for a Blues tune help yourself to the b7, however, leave the 9, 11 and 13 alone - only because that is what is normally done. Fancy blues has moved into jazz and is no longer blues. When the music gets fancy you may want to correct some of the lyrics, i.e.

"Woke up this morning, feeling mighty low,
yes I woke up this morning feeling mighty low.
That old woman done me this way before".

This may not fit with a more sophisticated melody line.

Here is something on books: Beginner's Bookshelf

Good luck.

[Dickie_uk]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Again if you are laying down a bass line for a Blues tune help yourself to the b7, however

Good luck.

Hi Again,
Thankyou for your previous reply.

One more quick question if I may?

Is the flat seven only generally used in the I IV V blues progression when playing in a major key?

If you are playing another sort of progression (pock or rock) in a major key would you use the normal major seventh (i.e. not flattened?)

I thinking of when you're playing arpeggios.

Please excuse my terminology if it's wrong