How do bassist learn songs in 15 seconds at jams?

[Doner Designs]

I'm more of a builder than a player and usually play alone, jam to ipod or jam with my son or a friend. May try playing at our church some day.

My question is about keeping in sync on changes. Is it necessary to always count measures or do musicians have signals and codes to tell each other when its time to shift?

If so, how do these get established...or are they universal? If universal, what are they? Practice, practice I suppose.

When I jam, we always get tripped up on starts, transitions and endings. Sometimes we just run an ipod in the background to keep us together, but that's sort of cheating even though its fine for fun.

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by Doner Designs

I'm more of a builder than a player and usually play alone, jam to ipod or jam with my son or a friend. May try playing at our church some day.

My question is about keeping in sync on changes. Is it necessary to always count measures or do musicians have signals and codes to tell each other when its time to shift?

If so, how do these get established...or are they universal? If universal, what are they? Practice, practice I suppose.

When I jam, we always get tripped up on starts, transitions and endings. Sometimes we just run an ipod in the background to keep us together, but that's sort of cheating even though its fine for fun.

That all very much depends on your experience/skill level, the experience/skill level of those you're playing with, and what sort of established rules the band in question has. My band uses some traditional ones, as well as some of our own. Twirling a finger in the air means repeat section, tapping the top of your head means to go to the main groove of the song (or the head), cutting across your throat means to end the song or the section, smacking your thumb against your fingers (sort of like making a duck face that's quacking) and then pointing up or down means to turn up or down, putting up a certain finger or certain fingers means to go to that degree of the key (so the tonic would be one finger, the third would be three fingers, etc...), the sign language sign for 'M' means to go minor with the current tonic and adjust everything accordingly, holding three fingers down to form an 'M' means to go major with the current tonic, etc... The key to all of this is knowing how to play your instrument well enough that you can keep your eyes up and open at all times with the rest of your band members.

[Ric5]

Originally Posted by JoeNage

Hi all,

I've been playing bass about 3 years and going to local blues jams for a few months. I do fine at the jams when the song has standard I-IV-V changes.

But I'm struggle when I don't know the song's chords. For example, a singer will come up, glance back at me, say "Moondance in A minor" and then kick off the band.

It's even worse when I've never heard of the song before. Sometimes, the guitar player will try to teach me the song in 15 seconds. Now if I had a written-out chart and 25 mins, I'm sure I could get it. But the set would be over by then.

Now I do see more experienced bassists learn songs just like that....in 15 seconds. How do they do it?

More importantly what do I need to do during my practice sessions to be able to do this? How do I break this skill down into the incremental steps I need to know?

Appreciate any advice.

There are a few tricks ...

1 - If there is a rhythm guitar player then watch what he plays and follow the chords.
2 - develop a good ear.
3 - learn a lot of songs.
4 - learn how to fake it in a believable way.

[aphor]

THIS!

Originally Posted by JTE

An often overlooked aspect of this is that too many inexperienced people think learning a song means learning the bass line to a specific recording of the song. That's silly. Learning a song is all the stuff listed in the posts above. Learn to hear structure and patterns, and learn to be able to play something appropriate for those patterns.

Being able to hear a 12 bar versus 16 bar versus AABA structure helps. Hearing common chord progression (not as Dmin to G7 but recognizing all of the ii V sounds) gives you a huge leg up. This kind of bass line works on Dmin to G7, so when I hear Amin to D7 the same kind of line will work.

Listen to what's going on around you, fall on your face a few times, pick yourself up, and ask questions afterwords- like "What was that cool change on that last tune- you know, where it obviously didn't go the V like I thought it did?"

John

The only thing I could add is that this is, in my experience, exactly the sort of thing that will get your money's worth out of formal instruction. It's not going to replace experience and practice playing, but IMHO it will demystify things and improve what you get from your time playing.

I just did Harlan Terson's Bass 2-3 at OTSFM https://www.oldtownschool.org/ a while ago, and his teaching method is exactly this, based on personal experience as a gigging musician. His courses are deconstructionist, "fast track," and really benefit from a lot of practice and experimentation time between classes. Maybe you could benefit from some instruction, if you can find someone who has or can do a similar program with you.

1. Learn your scales (start with I-IV-V songs in a major scale, then maybe try one in minor).
2. Train your ear on the "degrees" (root, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th..) of each scale. This is the part that must just be reinforced through experience.
3. Learn the chord progression of the song (by degrees of the scale, they will be the root notes of the chords).
4. Learn to arpeggiate the notes of the chords, by degrees. Practice transposing to different keys.
5. Notable exceptions: Try some progressions requiring both major and minor chords (I-VIm-V-I "doo wop"). Music theory, Circle of Fifths, Minor Compliments are concepts that make sense out of why some degrees of certain chords in certain progressions must be flatted.
6. All of that will give you an idea of what notes to play each bar, but now you need to worry about navigating through them, so you need to learn to intuitively see the fretboard patterns.
7. The scale degrees and fretboard patterns of chord changes from bar to bar will overlap in interesting ways. Seeing this will make walking basslines and bass runs intuitive.
8. Try deconstructing songs you like and then composing or improvising new bass parts for them.

[hgiles]

Originally Posted by kreider204

Theory, ear training, experience.

This!

[bassteban]

My secret weapon at these times is very muted/ghost notes.

[Not yet]

Just go out and play.... More you do it better you get. Playing live w other people in front of an audience moves your skills forward exponentially vs sittin by yourself.... Rest is background noise

[rogerjeep]

I agree with most of the replies but I would like to add my two cents.
It's very easy to say, practice scales, chord progressions, ear training etc... and we all know that can be overwhelming.
I used to tell my students that all music is the same. Meaning.....from Bach to Hank Williams to BB King to Metallica you will hear very similar progressions. Only the styles are different not the chordal progressions or relationship to those chords.
Things I would suggest practicing.
1. Learn the number system. that's a the 1, 4 ,5 stuff. if you don't know what it is. google it. A lot of musicians communicate that way. I have seen other musicians say they know it but when you stick a nashville # system chart in front of them they crash and burn.
2. Get a program like "band in a box" and put in a 12 bar blues progression so you will be able to hear these chordal relationships backwards and forwards.
3. learn the 2-5 relationship to chords, then add 6-2-5 chords then the 3-6-2-5.
4. Develop your ear so you know where and when the chord is changing to.
5. Be a good guesser. Know that most times on a 4 chord you are not going to a #1, usually a 2 or 5. Every chord has a tendency to take you to another chord. Learn those basic relationships.
I used to think any chord could be next then I learned that usually on any given chord your next chord is most likely only 2 options. Knowing those options is learning how progressions work
Problem is, the bass player is the one in these jams everyone should listen to. haha A good ear can get you through this with no problem.

I know this takes time and is easy for me and other bass players to say what to do but sometimes we take it for granted how we started out.

My advise is to continue going to jams and learning from other players. Never stop playing with others and learning songs you would not normally learn in your own band. Playing outside your comfort level will only make you better.
Also watch how more experienced bass players make it through songs they do not know. They mess up as well but probably better at recovering.

Good luck and keep jammin'

[Russell L]

We did several songs last night by request that I had never played before, one of which I had never even heard before. The guitar player knew them and could sing them, though. I told him to turn so I could see his hand (I also play guitar). But, even if I couldn't see him I could rely on my ear first (been playing since I was three), and then use my theory knowledge when needed (degree in theory). Those two things are indispensible to me, especially the decades of ear training. Most of the new songs I learn are done by listening to them while driving. I recognize the chord changes when I hear them, and then theory tells me what to call them. It's pretty much the same process at the jam.

[kudzoorude]

You've already received tons of great advice and ideas from a musical / theoretical perspective. Definitely parse through it. I'm adding some of it to my woodshed.

Speaking frankly from my experience, I've got two additional items that aren't theory or technique related. But they've helped me in my journey.

1. As often as possible, try to be the low man on the totem pole at the time. I started playing with an amazing church worship team in Nashville 3 years ago. Everyone of the other players were either session players, road talent, or producers/engineers and I was the very bottom of the talent pool on the platform. The first worship team I had to audition for...typical I thought, but when I got a callback to play the next morning, I found out why it was important. I came in, sound checked, we played a couple of fun covers like Saturday In The Park to get a band check, and then everyone headed to the green room. I asked the Worship Leader, "Do we have a worship set? Charts?" His reply was, "No. Not really. But I'll keep it easy for you today. Every song will be in Bb." He then smiled and walked into the green room. At first I didn't understand, but while we played he had a way of weaving modern and liturgical music back and forth. I could only see his back...so I couldn't see his chords. Thankfully the keyboard player was in my sight and he was throwing my numbers, so I was able to keep up. The first couple of times I played with them, I was always very nervous. I was afraid of messing up and looking bad to the team or church. But I was surrounded by professionals that were glad to help me out. I learned more from that team about playing live without a set than all my years of playing with charts or songs that I already knew. Now I secretly hope I'm the low man because that's where I learn the most. Which brings mean to my 2nd point.

2. Learn to get over your mistakes quickly and move on. Learn to laugh at yourself and have fun. Since I was the low man, I messed up ALOT. At first, it was a big deal to me. If I messed up a part or didn't know the song, I would start sweating so hard that my neck would be super slick. I was so focused on what I screwed up 8 bars ago that I started messing up again. Then I started obsessing about that mistake. See the potential cycle? Once I realized what was going on, I stopped focusing on my mistakes and started having FUN with the guys on the team. I started really listening to them and trusting they would help me out. Then I started getting a feel for certain things. Then I started adding my own flair which started sounding amazing which bumped my confidence which turned 1 hour worship times into all service worship times because the pastor didn't want to stop what was happening to deliver his message. He'd give it next week. Not that I don't prepare. Not that I don't spend most waking hours studying music, theory, song structure, etc. All of that helps me to not make mistakes in the first place. But when I do make a mistake, you'll most likely see me start giggling to myself for a bit then getting back into the song. Sometimes I take myself to seriously. Especially at jam sessions where I'm trying to impress people. Now if someone calls out a song I don't know, my response is: What's the verse/chorus numbers and Where do you want me to come in. Then I just do my best. If I screw up, I laugh, wink at the others, and try not to make the same mistake next verse.

For some reason, this really helps me. Hope it helps someone else. And remember, muted notes with a great groove with still get people on the dance floor. Half the time I was seriously screwing up a song, the majority of people weren't even aware the I hit a vi instead of the IV.

Have fun!!

Roger

[seanm]

Originally Posted by rogerjeep

5. Be a good guesser. Know that most times on a 4 chord you are not going to a #1, usually a 2 or 5. Every chord has a tendency to take you to another chord. Learn those basic relationships.

I agree with most of what you say.... except this. You don't play much old country do you? A popular progression goes: 1 4 1 5. This is so common I call it the vertical progression. You need the root on the second string for this to make sense.

But I would say practice is the most important. I used to go to a basement jam every week where I did not know what was going to be played in advance. It was very good training for my ear. It has been years now and last night I had to do the same thing. Ouch was I out of practice.

[Russell L]

Two benefits of being an old fart: I don't beat my golf clubs into the ground any more when I hit a flub, nor do I beat myself up when I miss a note. I just don't want to feel like that anymore. Fortunately, I'm a decent player, so I don't mess up too much. Terrible golfer, though.

But, I have played gigs that made me nervous. I soon found out that when you worry about missing a note you help to bring it on.

[bass12]

Originally Posted by BawanaRik

A good bass line is a song. Look at any Mac line.

A good bass line is a good bass line, and while it may go a long way in helping to define a song, knowing only the line does not constitute knowing the song. It's easy to play a bass line and still not have a firm understanding of, for example, the song's chord structure.

[seanm]

Originally Posted by bass12

A good bass line is a good bass line, and while it may go a long way in helping to define a song, knowing only the line does not constitute knowing the song. It's easy to play a bass line and still not have a firm understanding of, for example, the song's chord structure.

True. There are songs that I have learned note for note.... then told there is a key change and I am in trouble. Also, sometimes the original bass line does not work if you are missing some of the original instrumentation.

Knowing the chord structure can really help in both of these situations since, at the very least, you can just play roots. And if you are trying to learn a song in 15 seconds, roots are quite often a good starting point.

[kudzoorude]

Originally Posted by seanm

True. There are songs that I have learned note for note.... then told there is a key change and I am in trouble. Also, sometimes the original bass line does not work if you are missing some of the original instrumentation.

Knowing the chord structure can really help in both of these situations since, at the very least, you can just play roots. And if you are trying to learn a song in 15 seconds, roots are quite often a good starting point.

That's when I'm so thankful I was forced to use a Number system. Now I don't even worry about the key and note names as much. Just give me a key...the numbers...and I'll figure out the rest while we go. It may not be the "exact" bass line but I can assure you that it'll play.

[rogerjeep]

Originally Posted by seanm

I agree with most of what you say.... except this. You don't play much old country do you? A popular progression goes: 1 4 1 5. This is so common I call it the vertical progression. You need the root on the second string for this to make sense.

I have been playing country for over 20 years, I toured the country playing in a country group. Which i why I mentioned the Nashville # system. Now I am a recording engineer mainly doing country. However my degree is in upright bass.

I take no offense to what you are saying Seanm and understand what you mean but the question was how to get past three chords. That was what I was talking about.
I agree with what you say as well Seanm

[two fingers]

With a song like Moon Dance, you either know it or you don't. That's not an on the spot call out the chords song (and to me not a blues song..... but whatever). Even for 1-4-5 songs (even ones with different bridges and turn arounds) you don't "learn" the song. You wing it. But after having done it for 6 years as the house bass player for an open mic blues night, I got pretty good at winging it. Plus, the more you play, the more songs you will learn anyway.

Short version : It's a combination of a) winging it b) learning more songs and c) experience. But it taught me more than I can tell you. It's great experience. Being able to shift on the fly is what it;s all about. Have fun!

[seanm]

Originally Posted by rogerjeep

I have been playing country for over 20 years, I toured the country playing in a country group. Which i why I mentioned the Nashville # system. Now I am a recording engineer mainly doing country. However my degree is in upright bass.

I take no offense to what you are saying Seanm and understand what you mean but the question was how to get past three chords. That was what I was talking about.
I agree with what you say as well Seanm

I wasn't trying to be offensive, that's why I put in the wink. If it came out that way, I am sorry.

[JoeNage]

Thanks to all for the terrific advice. I guess I have a few New Year's Resolutions

1. Train ear to be able to name the diatonic intervals.
2. Learn to play major triads in succession following cycle of 4th.
3. Jam to Pandora (sounds more fun than above)

[Freddels]

Originally Posted by JoeNage

Thanks to all for the terrific advice. I guess I have a few New Year's Resolutions

1. Train ear to be able to name the diatonic intervals.
2. Learn to play major triads in succession following cycle of 4th.
3. Jam to Pandora (sounds more fun than above)

Not just major triads . . . minor triads, then add the 7ths, then diminished triads.