How do i undo years of learning in patterns?

[loonj91]

I learned scales, arpeggios, and the modes, and things like that all in patterns. For a while I did not think anything was wrong with it, and i thought thats what it was like to play.

I am feeling now like i am being held back tremendously by this. This limits my ideas, my range, and my walking. Every time i get to a new chord i have to shift into the position i know the pattern in, or just know, alright here is a Ab7, and i am playing it with dom 7, and here the notes i can play ( i think of the pattern throughout the fretboard)

I tend to think, when walking, C, 2, b3, 3, F, b7, b3 2, F, b6, chromatic down 2 beats, etc. I think in patterns of what intervals they are, and i only know the intervals in those positions, so i cannot play anywhere on the board continiously. I think in intervals of the patterns i know, and chromatically to where i am headed, but i don't know what the actually notes are. I can get away with it too, which i dont want to.

I also, know all the patterns for some walking like II-IV-I's i just memorize walking there with chromatic approaches.

This is bad isn't it? How do i undo this? Does anyone else play this way and somehow get away with it and sound good.

[62bass]

Originally Posted by loonj91

I learned scales, arpeggios, and the modes, and things like that all in patterns. For a while I did not think anything was wrong with it, and i thought thats what it was like to play.

I am feeling now like i am being held back tremendously by this. This limits my ideas, my range, and my walking. Every time i get to a new chord i have to shift into the position i know the pattern in, or just know, alright here is a Ab7, and i am playing it with dom 7, and here the notes i can play ( i think of the pattern throughout the fretboard)

I tend to think, when walking, C, 2, b3, 3, F, b7, b3 2, F, b6, chromatic down 2 beats, etc. I think in patterns of what intervals they are, and i only know the intervals in those positions, so i cannot play anywhere on the board continiously. I think in intervals of the patterns i know, and chromatically to where i am headed, but i don't know what the actually notes are. I can get away with it too, which i dont want to.

I also, know all the patterns for some walking like II-IV-I's i just memorize walking there with chromatic approaches.

This is bad isn't it? How do i undo this? Does anyone else play this way and somehow get away with it and sound good.

Carol Kaye's materials and methods she gives for practice will get you out of that rut so you really know your fingerboard and don't always have to go for the root and play the same boring scale lines. You can contact her via her website and tell her your situation and what she recommends to start with. It won't take too long with the exercises she recommends and from listening to the lines she plays and the fingerings she uses. I'd start with the Bass DVD Course, but ask her.

[loonj91]

thanks, i am looking inter her books.

anyone else have any advice or experience in this? i would like to hear as much as possible.

[Andrew Jones]

Every time i get to a new chord i have to shift into the position i know the pattern in,

Hate to say but this clearly indicates you don't know your inversions and fretboard well.

I highly recommend Gary Willis's Fingerboard book


AJ

[loonj91]

Originally Posted by Andrew Jones

Hate to say but this clearly indicates you don't know your inversions and fretboard well.

I highly recommend Gary Willis's Fingerboard book


AJ

This is true as well, but it says its on the book description,

"A comprehensive source for learning the theory and geometry of the bass fingerboard by one of today's leading players and instructors. Audio features Gary Willis demonstrating 99 examples and exercises."

geometry is what i want to shy away from now, so i can just think of everything i am playing right?

note: i never did use books for learning walking bass..should i, and which are the best? i do not want to waste money, i know there are tons of these books out there i just want the best.

[Earthday]

Check out Pacman's scale method sticky at the top. What it should do for you is help you see tons of new patterns. It's not a bad thing that you know patterns well, its only a problem if you're stuck in them. So learn more, but make sure you're learning note names and relationships along the way. Play slow and let your ear guide you to new notes and positions.

[Andrew Jones]

It's the best I know of.

If you want More the big book written by the old bass player from the tonight show ( Italian name) shows in a couple of chapters very similar things.

I recommend the Willis book.It's less overwhelming/distracting.


Believe it or not I think you'd get allot out of Del Nero ear training for bass. It's extremely good and regardless of the title/subject,will help you allot.

[jfv]

If you don't want to be in a pattern rut, then don't
PLAY patterns... ok, so what do I mean...

I mean, get out a REAL book, something with melodies
in it, and learn to play Melodies, this makes you hunt
for PARTICULAR notes.

Another idea is force yourself to stay in a position,
like what in Simandl technique is called half/first, for
your fretted types thats 0 - 4. That much of the neck
is a COMPLETE chromatic palatte, all keys can be played
in it, now either use some music program, or just mental
discipline and shift key center every couple of bars, use
a circle of fifths, or whole tone, or whatever.

Gary Willis has been mentioned here, I have his book,
and he is an awesome player, but I agree with you,
he still is oriented to patterns. I like to be thinking
a sequence of notes in my head, not rectangles or
triangles

One last tip I use is single string playing, play for 10
minutes on just one string, switch keys, melodies,
whatever, and then change strings and continue...

Cheers,

[Andrew Jones]

JFV's advice is great, The theme was restriction either horizontally or vertically on the fingerboard.Both will lead to new ideas and fretboard knowledge.

I got a different a thing out of willis's book than JFV did to me it was just more of the same theme, restriction in order to force something new then repeat till that becomes a option under fire.


As far a the idea that thinking in shapes is bad well... it is, unless those shapes have/represent sounds in your head. If you repeat something to the point where you can sing it before you play it. How you learned it don't matter.



Aj

[loonj91]

well the way i see it is i want to be able to memorize arpeggios and scales the way i know the square root of all numbers 0-10 by memory, and the way i know the times tables 1-12. I want it to be in my head just known so i can think notes, and not think what each mode looks like. How would i achieve this? Ask me 8x6 and i can say "48" without counting them up. ask me an arpeggio of Ab minor, i would have to play it according to the pattern, and look at what notes i am playing, and then state the notes i am playing.


Also, soloing is so much harder when i think in patterns because i am always switching. If i knew notes, i would know the common tones between different changes, and it would sound so much more fluid. I think i will start playing Scales, arpeggios, and

[ajb]

Originally Posted by Andrew Jones

Hate to say but this clearly indicates you don't know your inversions and fretboard well.

I highly recommend Gary Willis's Fingerboard book


AJ

AJ is right. I know where you are coming from but, ironically, the solution is to know even more theory info (inversions in particular). I also recommend getting heavily into ear training. Keep practicing and by all means get a competent bass instructor -- I can assure you that the solution is not knowing less, it's knowing more.

[loonj91]

this is so frustrating i have only recently began to notice how much this is and has been holding me back

would it be beneficial to just write out something like this over and over again, away from the instrument:

Scale C: C D E F G A B C
Arpeggio: C E G B

Scale F: F G A Bb C D E F
Arpeggio: F A C E

Scale Bb: Bb C D Eb F G A Bb
Arpeggio Bb D F A


etc through ought the cycle, and then in like Mixo, then in Dorian and Aeolian and the more common modes, and then to the lesser used ones.



Then on the instrument, independently from the scales, learn melodies in positions i am less familiar with, and then after doing these two things, i would combine them?

[jfv]

One final thought on this thread. All of this stuffing
of scale and appegios into memory helps, true, and
all the practicing helps... But the best thing of all
is to perform, to finally have to put it on the line
whereever you are in your development, its the most
powerful way to advance.

Its easier for some than others to find the opportunity,
but make an effort to find it. I play with a big band,
we have a public gig at least once a month, sometimes
more, we also rehearse once a week.

Some rehearsals SUCK, but others really are a rush.
We just had a gig last month, played 3 sets, some
swing jazz, even had a small dixieland subgroup. The
audience just really dug us, had a standing ovation
and encore at the end. Nothing else helps your playing
like that does.

Good luck and have fun,

[dbcandle]

Originally Posted by Andrew Jones

It's the best I know of.

If you want More the big book written by the old bass player from the tonight show ( Italian name) shows in a couple of chapters very similar things.
...

FYI the Italian guy's book is:
"Serious Electric Bass" by Joel Di Bartolo

[PocketGroove82]

If you want to get away from the shape/pattern rut, you need to work on developing the connection between the sounds you hear in your head and your hands. Running patterns and shapes is functional, but it's got more in common with 'Data Entry' than musicianship.

Try to sing and play, play what you sing, and transcribe the guys you like.
I'm working on breaking this habit too.

Matt

[hunta]

It's tough to transition from thinking in patterns (or rather not thinking) to thinking in notes and intervals. I originally was a pattern player, and to transition it took a long time of consciously forcing myself away from thinking that way. I still use patterns quite a bit, but in a very different way. I will often think in terms of interval patterns, arpeggio patterns, scale patterns, but thanks to a lot of ear training I've connected the sounds to the patterns. It's helpful to be able to switch gears: know the patterns, know the theory, know the sounds. Be able to think in terms of them all.

For example, suppose you're playing a written part with no chord symbols. How do you go about figuring out the chords and the tonal character of the piece? I don't know about you, but when I'm sight reading a part I'm not able to multitask by doing a roman numeral chordal analysis in my head and still play the right notes and rhythms. I recognize the patterns, I recognize the sounds. Thinking in terms of the actual names of the notes is probably the slowest way to figure out anything.

By all means, escape the shapes. But don't throw them away.

[Freddels]

Play your patterns but say the name of each note out loud. Do it slowly.

[azureblue]

Scalular playing is vertical and static. It has nothing to do with the music, just repetitions of manual patterns. So think horizontally- think chord progresion in groups, not as seperate entities:
This will help:
One- learn the melody and the harmonies to the melody. Any good jazz player learns the entire song.

Two- take groups of chords in the song and find their common tones and on common tones. solo on common tones first- this will lead to modal and scalular concepts, and observe how your mind wants to fall into that pattern. Next, solo on non common tones. this will break you out of the scale framework. Now take both common and non common tones, and DO NOT PLAY, but write down a brand new melody for each approach, away from the bass.

Now go back and play those melodies and use them as frameworks to solo on.

Now go back to the song and search the song for substitute chords patterns- tri tone subs, 2 / 5 / 1, chromatics, etc., and repeat the process.

Try beginning your solos on a 2 / 4 or 6 note, and try avoiding principle triadic chord tones during your solos.

Just stop looking at the chords as individual events and look at the whole tune.

Hope this helps