How does free jazz "work?"

Matt Till · #1 06-09-2007, 01:25 PM

Honestly, what started my interest in this: Trout Mask Replica (by Captain Beefheart and his Magic band). At first, of course, I didn't like it... but then it clicked that they were all playing different things: But it worked.

I've been really digging the 70s and onwards works of Ornette Coleman as well, that's when things got especially polyphonic/rhythmic. But how?!

I know there is no strict pattern to free jazz, and a lot of the music I listen to is atonal so I have a higher tolerance for discord than some: But it isn't just a bunch of people squawking saxes and randomly slamming drums: There is something more than that.

This is probably above, or below, my head... and like I said, as soon as some standard is set in free jazz, it stops being free jazz... is it really just "play and see what happens?"

Really generic questions, but I can't even wrap my head around some of this stuff: How and why things sound "right" to me, even though it sounds beyond wrong to some.

jazzbo · #2 06-09-2007, 01:41 PM

I know this isn't an answer, but I'm running out the door and I just wanna share, that honestly, I think a big component of it is that you just gotta hear it.

Jazzin' · #3 06-09-2007, 01:51 PM

There's a lot of listening going on between the players.

Passinwind · #4 06-09-2007, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Till

... is it really just "play and see what happens?"

Sometimes, but IMO it's actually quite hard to do that for real. I remember seeing Jack Dejohnette spin some disks around on top of his drums and when they fell onto the heads he took that pattern and ran with it for twenty minutes or so. There may or may not be a strict pattern, but you'll find repeating motifs of some kind in most "free jazz" if you listen to it enough.

Really generic questions, but I can't even wrap my head around some of this stuff: How and why things sound "right" to me, even though it sounds beyond wrong to some.

I used to DJ on a community station, and over a few years I managed to make lots of "difficult" music palatable to quite a few people. IMHO the trick is finding the right gateway. For you maybe it was Beefheart, for lots of guys my age it was the Grateful Dead and/or Zappa, then Miles, then Coltrane. But really, maybe it's best to just enjoy the ride? There really is no accounting for taste, eh?

DocBop · #5 06-09-2007, 04:41 PM

As everyone is saying it all about listening to each other and building off what someone starts. Sometimes it is organized as to who starts and who next changes things up. Other times its like jam someone decided its time to throw an new idea out. Then some there is a framework/song they are working from to start/end things or create a varity of sections. But most important is everyone is listening to each other, picking up the motifs and expanding on them.

saxabass · #6 06-09-2007, 04:48 PM

A great place to start w/ free jazz is in Coltrane's late works, especially if you can hunt down some live stuff, and if you go chronologically in your listening from 1960 up until Trane's death, you will hear how they broke "free" from the then modern modal forms. I guess it's all about unrestricted harmony (and disharmony), that somehow works.

JAUQO III-X · #7 06-09-2007, 05:10 PM

There really is a form/pattern to Free Jazz and it was mainly called free because a lot of elements of what was/is going on was nothing at all like the more focused aspect of Bebop,Hard bop or Strait Ahead jazz and even those three elements of Jazz has a large aspect of improvisation taking place.

It would be best to start with the earliest works of Ornette(the late 50's)before you get to the work of Coltrane because Coltrane got a lot of his conceptional understanding of Free Jazz from his studies with Ornette,before that Coltrane was playing things very very close to the safety net of improvisation compared to Ornette,Albert Ayler,Eric Dolphy,Archie Shepp and the many works of Sun Ra.

Ben Rolston · #8 06-09-2007, 05:23 PM

When I listen to "free jazz" what moves me the most is the interactions between all the players (I know this was said already, I just agree). I think that free jazz was maybe a step to try to get closer to conversation between instruments; sometimes traditional jazz gets so orchestrated that it loses that conversational aspect in my opinion.

JAUQO III-X · #9 06-09-2007, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Rolston

sometimes traditional jazz gets so orchestrated that it loses that conversational aspect.

saxnbass · #10 06-09-2007, 05:31 PM

"You know why they call it free jazz? Cause that's what you play for. Free." -The Bankrupt Bassplayer

**Mark Wilson** · #11 06-10-2007, 10:35 PM

Free Jazz is all about hearing things in your head, and getting them through your instrument.
It's about finding that connection between band mates, knowing what they're going to do, when they're going to do it.
Free Jazz can be very hard if it's done properly.

JAUQO III-X · #12 06-10-2007, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Wilson

Free Jazz is all about hearing things in your head, and getting them through your instrument.
It's about finding that connection between band mates, knowing what they're going to do, when they're going to do it.

No disrespect Mark but that waters down considerably what Free Jazz is all about.

**Mark Wilson** · #13 06-10-2007, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAUQO III-X

No disrespect Mark but that waters down considerably what Free Jazz is all about.

No Disrespect Taken.
What do you mean, Jauqo?

JAUQO III-X · #14 06-10-2007, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Wilson

No Disrespect Taken.
What do you mean, Jauqo?

One of the key elements in Free Jazz and most improvisational music is that you don't know what your band mates are going to play and that is one of the many aspects of Free Jazz that makes it so powerful.

If you abandon chords and you have no chords to construct what are you left with ?

you're left with a micro moment of your thought process to figure things out and make them work.

Multiple rhythms can be applied just as if it's a chord,constructing a texture that can become the tonic that leads the music into a realm of sonic chordal freedom that is not in the traditional form of chord construction.

DocBop · #15 06-10-2007, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Wilson

Free Jazz is all about hearing things in your head, and getting them through your instrument.
It's about finding that connection between band mates, knowing what they're going to do, when they're going to do it.
Free Jazz can be very hard if it's done properly.

All music should meet that critieria. I would say it does apply for good groups that is what being a band is all about.

geoffkhan · #16 06-11-2007, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAUQO III-X

you're left with a micro moment of your thought process to figure things out and make them work.

Well said! It's that micro moment of listening that's essential to free jazz.

This fluency between your ear, reaction, and produced sound is something to work towards in Jazz and improvisational playing in general as well.

Bruce Lindfield · #17 06-11-2007, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Till

Honestly, what started my interest in this: Trout Mask Replica (by Captain Beefheart and his Magic band). At first, of course, I didn't like it... but then it clicked that they were all playing different things: But it worked. .

Several things going on here - but first I just need to say that Troutmask Replica is NOT Free Jazz!

It is not Jazz and it is not "Free" ....Beefheart composed all those tunes and the process of getting them exactly how he wanted was long and painstaking and has been well-documented - he shut the band away for long periods without distractions, getting them to play exactly what he wanted!

So in a fact - it is the very opposite of Free Jazz - which is basically co-operative - this was dictatorship!

"But the seeming sonic chaos is an illusion -- to construct the songs, the Magic Band rehearsed twelve hours a day for months on end in a house with the windows blacked out

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/sto...t_mask_replica

Bruce Lindfield · #18 06-11-2007, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Till

I've been really digging the 70s and onwards works of Ornette Coleman as well, that's when things got especially polyphonic/rhythmic. But how?!

I know there is no strict pattern to free jazz, and a lot of the music I listen to is atonal so I have a higher tolerance for discord than some: But it isn't just a bunch of people squawking saxes and randomly slamming drums: There is something more than that.

This is probably above, or below, my head... and like I said, as soon as some standard is set in free jazz, it stops being free jazz... is it really just "play and see what happens?"

To take this second part - now Ornette is in many ways, the father of Free Jazz - so you're on the right track there!

But the thing to bear in mind is that those guys had huge experience of Jazz and the Blues to draw on - they had a big vocabulary of licks/riffs and ideas - a lot of these were held in common and would be familiar - a shared history of Jazz that they could draw on.

So by playing Jazz for many years they got great ears and a huge amount of material that could be the basis for branching 'out' and getting back.

In those records with Don Cherry and Charlie Haden etc. - you can hear motifs that recur - you can hear a lot of Jazz vocabulary cropping up at places and these guys can draw on massive experience of just playing Jazz with other people all the time.

So they have the shared history and great ears - plus many reference points from the Blues and Jazz - that's why it sounds more coherent - even when they may well be just "playing and seeing what happens"....

Free Jazz is actually pretty hard - hard not to repeat yourself or run out of ideas - I've had that demonstrated many times to me!!

So at Jazz Summerschool I've been to quite a few classes on Free Jazz and I did a whole week with the UK composer/Alto Player Jason Yarde, where we just played freely and tried to compose spontaneously!

Jason himself was a never-ending source of ideas and new takes to try - but as students we quickly ran out of inspiration! It is in fact, very easy to identify great players doing "Free Jazz" as it sounds great - whereas the less you have to draw on, the worse it sounds and the sooner the players repeat themselves...

BassChuck · #19 06-11-2007, 05:45 AM

This is question that I've had for years too. Let me amplify what I think the OP was asking.

Years ago I heard a concert with Pat Methany, Ornette Coleman, Charlie Hayden and Jack DeJohnette. They were promoting the Methany album "Song X". I count this concert as one of the major musical moments of my life. It was amazing.

Even though it was 'Free Jazz' each song had its own identity in terms of color and intensity and 'mood'. I had the album ahead of time and had listened carefully. I was expecting the concert to be a long free jam, but no.. they did the 'songs' and the same identity was there.

This was Free Jazz in every sense of the term, but there was a concept behind each piece. My question would be, what kind of pre-playing communication was there? If all elements are possible in a performance, what is done to keep out, or include the ones that give the piece the identity? I mean, if I'm on a gig and someone calls "All the Things You Are", I'm pretty sure right there that we are in Ab and once the tempo is given, many options are excluded. How is that done in Free Jazz?

NickyBass · #20 06-11-2007, 07:07 AM

The way I see it, a good introduction to free jazz is bebop. The masters - Coltrane, Coleman, Ayler, Sanders - took a definitive path to creating this music. I don't mean to say that you have to play bebop for years before you can play free jazz, but that is a great way to devlop interaction and improvisation within a form.