How does free jazz "work?"

[JAUQO III-X]

I believe I did answer the OP's question and most of my answers come from first hand experience with Ornette Coleman and my own concept which Ornette recognized as being conceptually legitimate..

and sorry to say but the key elements that go into Free Jazz is totally different from what is referred to as Jamming and again I described aspects of this in my posts throughout this thread.

[spindizzy]

Well I take it you thought that my post was directed only at you, a consistent occurrence in threads I have visited in other forums. The fact that you stated "I have explained this already" (a paraphrase of your last post) isn't sufficient for me especially after listening to your stuff and the various artists listed as examples.

There does seem to be specifics to the form. It doesn't just feel like improvisation without any structure but rather a structure that supports and encourages free expression within that structure. Now if you are not able to provide more of an explanation or more answers to continue to support the theory that "Free Jazz" is somehow different from any other genre driven orchestrated "Jam Session" performed by genre specific "Jam Bands" that's just fine. Just don't get offended because I pointed out my confusion with the current thread and the lack of more substance than just "listen to this guy" or "the fellow started it all you should listen to him". I personally don't care. I just "jam" when opportunity to be free of structure comes along and someone shouts "common Spin, play with me".

To challenge this discussion to be more informative about this subject and the concept that almost anything played by competent musicians with a strong command of the conversational language of music could conceivably create a genre that is best described as "Free".

Never was knocking Ornette. Never was knocking Jauqo III-X. Wasn't after Till or Lindfield. Maybe out for DocBop but that would be just jealously for how laid back and often stunningly insightful I have found many of his posts.

I am now sorry however that I added my little perspective.

[JAUQO III-X]

No not at all Spin and I didn't feel that you were knocking me or any one else I just think that some of the explanations from me and others were legitimate at introducing the basics of Free Jazz to at least get the OP or those who may be interested started.

I understand your perspective and Jamming and free jazz are two different idioms.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by spindizzy

Well I take it you thought that my post was directed only at you, a consistent occurrence in threads I have visited in other forums. The fact that you stated "I have explained this already" (a paraphrase of your last post) isn't sufficient for me especially after listening to your stuff and the various artists listed as examples.

There does seem to be specifics to the form. It doesn't just feel like improvisation without any structure but rather a structure that supports and encourages free expression within that structure. Now if you are not able to provide more of an explanation or more answers to continue to support the theory that "Free Jazz" is somehow different from any other genre driven orchestrated "Jam Session" performed by genre specific "Jam Bands" that's just fine. Just don't get offended because I pointed out my confusion with the current thread and the lack of more substance than just "listen to this guy" or "the fellow started it all you should listen to him". I personally don't care. I just "jam" when opportunity to be free of structure comes along and someone shouts "common Spin, play with me".

To challenge this discussion to be more informative about this subject and the concept that almost anything played by competent musicians with a strong command of the conversational language of music could conceivably create a genre that is best described as "Free".

I think you have a point - so whereas in America there is a clear history and tradition which shows you how Free Jazz was arrived at - in Europe it is not so cut and dried!

So there is a lot of European, Freely improvised music and it may not be 'Jazz' as such - and you could get 'classical' musicians involved - people from folk traditions etc. etc.

It then gets much harder to say why this is not just a 'jam' between like-minded souls...?

I think my earlier points are also related to a difference between "American Popular Music ", which could be said to include Jazz - and European, "Art or Serious Music"....

So there is a lot of 20th century and later, avant-garde music in Europe which sounds totally chaotic - but which may have been through-composed, note-for note !

There is also music written with random elements (stochastic) or unplayable pictorial descriptions/suggestion - see Stockhausen's scores!!

In America in 1960 - "Free Jazz" was just the title of an album by Ornette Coleman's "Double Quartet"!

But in any other time or place, "Free Jazz" is much harder to pin down!

[spindizzy]

Then in the spirit of continuing this conversation, which I do indeed find very interesting, is it reasonable to suggest that at some point in the past several forms of music, including the three most closely associated with "jamming" Blues, Jazz and Rock, most likely were born out of "jamming" in some other musical form? If so, that is that Jazz itself is an outgrowth of jams involving musicians attempting to stretch thier musical muscles beyond another form, then "Free Jazz" may be in some ways a matter of Jazz coming full circle. This is the part of the idea of a "Free Jazz" form that I find most interesting.

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by JAUQO III-X

I believe I did answer the OP's question and most of my answers come from first hand experience with Ornette Coleman and my own concept which Ornette recognized as being conceptually legitimate..

and sorry to say but the key elements that go into Free Jazz is totally different from what is referred to as Jamming and again I described aspects of this in my posts throughout this thread.

+1

I agree Jamming isn't the right term to use relation to Free Jazz and IMO Jazz in general. Free Jazz is about exploration like a scientist. There is a specific territory being explored and ideas expanded on.

Jamming is looser in general and more about saying something than finding something.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Well - people jam in Rock and Blues - but this is more like a limited form of "normal" Jazz improvisation - based on changes.

So Rock and Blues improvisers - tend to stick to a fairly limited set of scales or chord tones when they jam .

Jazz started expanding this vocabulary and it is part of what makes it Jazz - so Jazz players will use a much wider variety of scales and will also play chromatic notes... etc etc

The difference with Free Jazz is that you are precisely not jamming on a few chords as you would in a blues or rock jam - there are no chords - you are not aiming to find the hidden chord progression and play together in that way - you are aiming to create something that could go anywhere....

Well as I was saying it is hard to pin down and it is probably easier to say what it is not - it's not a blues jam in F!

[spindizzy]

Wonderful!

I missed that part Bruce although I think I subconcously picked up on it as I was listening but didn't put it together until you wrote here. No chords (and since I tend to always look for sense to be made at the chordal and time signature level this is the clue I was looking for). Exploration without form leading always to the unknown. A form without form. A stream of licks going where the conversation between players leads it. No destinct responsibility placed on anyone to hold it together or lead on to the next section or theme. A musical free for all. A dangerous journey down a musical cliff. In other words...fun.

Now i must go a listen again with a fresh perspective.

Spin

[JAUQO III-X]

Originally Posted by spindizzy

Now i must go a listen again with a fresh perspective.

What are you listening to ?

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by spindizzy

Wonderful!

I missed that part Bruce although I think I subconcously picked up on it as I was listening but didn't put it together until you wrote here. No chords (and since I tend to always look for sense to be made at the chordal and time signature level this is the clue I was looking for). Exploration without form leading always to the unknown. A form without form. A stream of licks going where the conversation between players leads it. No destinct responsibility placed on anyone to hold it together or lead on to the next section or theme. A musical free for all. A dangerous journey down a musical cliff. In other words...fun.

Well I think I was trying to say earlier that while it very rewarding, I think it is actually very hard to play freely and avoid cliches or repeating yourself, or playing something that just falls nicely under your hands etc. etc.

I think that's why a lot of it is noisy and raucous, as without intensity, the music is nothing really...?

[spindizzy]

Bowing out of a thread politely seems difficult here.

First to answer Jauqo question; I have been digging up the artists and examples that were suggested by folks during the course of this thread. Among those examples I came across at least one vid that feature you (Jauqo that is) playing what seemed to be a piece that fit the descriptions utilized during the course of this thread.

And for Bruce; well dude I was indeed simply attempting to bow out and suggest that I would continue to listen with perhaps a clearer understanding of what I should be listening for (or perhaps what I shouldn't expect to hear). In general, based on the few examples I have listened to so far, I think that I have heard much in the way of musicianship from individual players in this form but I haven't quite figured out exactly whether or not it is possible for a non-participant to have quite the same appreciation for the whole as either the players or perhaps folks who follow those players so closely that the hear what others might not.

I haven't been all that impressed with bass playing in these pieces (not saying bad just saying no one really held my attention for long or showed any real innovation or departure from main stream styles or executions). The pieces as a whole did sound like so much noise in places although occasionally I did hear points where there seemed to be an intersection of ideas and that can be thrilling even for an audience if they feel that sudden convergence of ideas as the outcome of group improvisation.

Overall however many simply were like an episode from one of those improv comedy shows were the actors start with a premise and characters to play and then wing a scene. Sometimes its funny sometimes it goes nowhere.

Now I intend to nose around for a few more examples but it is mostly because I like to know things not because I intend to go down this road. It ain't gonna happen as my life is getting shorter everyday and I have my own compostitions and directions I prefer to pursue.

So now that I am writing my last post in this thread I leave you with a very important task...play nice!

Spin

[JAUQO III-X]

[spindizzy]

Foyee and I was so gone from this thread.

Jauqo - I need to appologize, although I am hoping you did not take my comment about not finding the bass playing impressive the wrong way. I did not mean you in particular. I may not completely get this specific form of Jazz but I have seen you play a number of times (on vid sad to say not live) and certainly you are a very fine player.

I just saw your post here and realized that what I said about the quality of bass playing might get misinterpreted. Hopefully, and I think you are a reasonable fellow so I am not overly worried, you did not think I was aiming at you.

Spin

[JAUQO III-X]

Spin there's no need to apologize I could have taken it as you not digging my bass playing(maybe you don't)but I learned a long time ago that some aspects of my bass playing is not for every one but then again maybe all aspects

I think to the untrained ears(and I feel that your ears are untrained when it comes to the music discussed in the thread) that your description would be pretty close to accurate.