How to learn improvisational jazz

[Spin Doctor]

That's cool bro. I didn't mean to sound discouraging, and it's very possible for you to rise to those heights. Or get close anyway... It's gonna take a lot of effort and it's something you're really gonna have to love doing. I mean you're gonna have to love doing the work and the practice and the exploration...

Personally, I love practicing bass. I like it more than playing gigs sometimes, lol. I love having it in my hands and figuring things out and really learning my instrument. Lately, I've found myself getting into a zone, where I don't even realize I have a bass in my hands. Music just comes out. So I think for me, I'm getting a glimpse of what it's supposed to be about. I have a seriously long way to go though...

[20YearNoob]

One thing that no one here has mentioned is the specific purpose of practicing all of those 'jazz languange' bits they told you to practice.

It's not so that you know how to put your fingers on the right frets to stay in that scale. That's pretty much backwards, as far as I understand it.

Practicing, for exampe, Dorian mode, will teach you the ability to "think in dorian mode". After you have practiced dorian mode for a while, play a minor key vamp backing track, and put down your bass. Now try to "sing" a bass solo in dorian key. Make your brain stay inside the dorian mode and make up a melody in your head against that minor vamp.

Now, pick up your bass and 'transcribe' that melody onto the fretboard. THIS is what the practicing with your bass gets you! That after your brain made up that melody (maybe even 1 second ago) your fingers go play it.

Once you're are able to 'sing' good solos, you will have an easier time placing your fingers on the frets that match what your imagination made up.

[grisezd]

Just a question, though it might sound loaded: If you can hear a good melody in your head and transcribe it to your instrument, does it matter if it's in the dorian mode (for example)? Can a person do something beautiful and compelling without knowing the language?

Ok, that's two questions...

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by grisezd

Just a question, though it might sound loaded: If you can hear a good melody in your head and transcribe it to your instrument, does it matter if it's in the dorian mode (for example)? Can a person do something beautiful and compelling without knowing the language?

Ok, that's two questions...

No and yes. Personally, I find modal/scalar playing results in some boring music. However, even though I think modes are grossly overrated as devices for playing music, I'm totally behind learning all you can about music and how it works on a tech level, because even if you're not into music based on high-falutin' jazz concepts, it only makes things easier for you to understand and write music.

[MrChrizmo]

well, I'm kind of in the same boat as you bongostealth,
I've been trying to learn improvising for quite some time now and having a hard time doing it...

I played guitar for some years before switching to bass and have been to teachers with a heavy jazz background on both instruments

they told me pretty much the same things mentioned in this thread, transcribe transcribe transcribe, listen listen listen, practice scales / modes, sing to the chord changes and transcribe your singing etc

now, my knowledge in music theory is still very small, although I try to learn as much as I can and my application of the theory on the bass is still smaller

so, I did all that was recommended, took me hours to transcribe because my ears aren't trained that well, practiced scales and modes for hours etc then I threw in some "easy" standard into band-in-a-box to have some solo fun... and it sounded like ****...

I got discouraged and let it be for some months, then picked it up again, got discouraged again until I realized that all these steps - transcribing, singing, scales / modes are just too much for me at my level and that I really need to start from the ground up with babysteps

btw, the program I use for transcribing is this:
http://www.seventhstring.com/xscribe/download.html
Transcribe !

one big problem with scales / modes for me is, I can practice one until I can really play it fluid, but once I try to play over changes it's no use to me because for the solo to be musical you can't just throw down the scale, the main chord tones and extensions are very important and more so how you can connect two chords with a smooth musical sounding line

I then did a jazz workshop this summer and my teacher there told me to just start with the arpeggios of the chords, just play arpeggios of all chords in the standard, this alone was challenge enough for me,
once I could do this the next step was to string the arpeggios together, play the arpeggio in quarter notes and as soon as the next bar starts - take the nearest chord tone and play the arpeggio of the next chord... this is something that I have a really hard time with and I'm currently working on

you can also check out scott's bass lessons on youtube, he describes this same process, I also recently bought the backing tracks from his site, really great stuff, there are backing tracks just with some ii-V-I changes where you can practice soloing over

in my experience, without paying any mind to scales and modes, just 4 tones per chord, per bar, and trying to string them together, it really helped my get started, and I'm trying to get musical ideas of how to string solos together and listen to the chords etc...

maybe this helps,
regards,
Christian

[wrench45us]

chord tones/arps would always seem to supply more of a harmonic outline than scalar tones, butthere are always those convenient up/down walk to next chord usinag scale tones.

This all seems to me to be about learning the vocabulary and grammar and then if one digs in and trains the ear it may be possible to develop some intention as Ed Fuqua brings up in every other one of these threads. Actually knowing at some depth how the song goes seesm to help in doing more than just throwing 'approriate' patterns in place.
It's pretty easy to hear or rerad a transcription when somebody manages to add this intention. I'm coming across it in a book of Sam Jones transcriptions with soem standards aI sort of know.

Anyway here's an idea that may or may not have value -- or may just be a bit of a cheat. REal Book lead sheets are vanilla 'arrangements'. It's pretty much expected that there'll be added color and tension tones added. If one gets hold of more fleshed out arrangements, one can see that somebody more schooled and skilled than me has added chords and extended chords as they've explored and added some level of intention and direction. Now as a bass player it should be possible to piggyback off these additional chords and chord types and work out a more fleshed out bassline.
Given a recording to match the arrangement or some keyboard skills it may even be possible to get some depth of learning out of these arrangements and eventually develop an ear to make similar choices one's own self.

[Spin Doctor]

Since I’m currently trying to figure this improvisation thing out I’m gonna give my take on it. The disclaimer is that this could all be complete BS so you can take it for what it’s worth. Also, sorry for the extremely long post, but you can’t really talk about learning jazz in a few sentences...

So as near as I can figure, there are three phases to learning jazz improv. First you have to learn your way around the instrument, then you assimilate stuff from guys you like then you put your own take on it. Each phase takes from 3-5 years if you’re really into it.

In the first phase you’re trying to figure out chord structure, scales, arpeggios and pentatonics. Using backing tracks of chord progressions makes this more interesting. This is analogous to learning your alphabet. Like kindergarten. So you get the geography down, you learn patterns of scales, arpeggios and pentatonics and basically give yourself some background for understanding the next phase. It’s the grunt work.

So now you’re armed with some knowledge of your instrument and so you start to do some transcribing. This is the assimilation phase - the listening.

Now, I think where a lot of people go off the rails transcribing is that they want to write all this **** out. You don’t need to do that. I mean you can if you want to, but the guys I know who can REALLY play and I mean worldwide, always say, don’t worry about writing it down. Just learn it. You already learned the bass geography somewhat and you know about scales and stuff somewhat. All you should be doing is just copying solos, picking up a bar of stuff here and 4 bars of that stuff there and maybe a whole solo, occasionally. But you only need to use your ears. That’s what guides you, not stuff on paper. “All” those jazz guys are doing is weaving together scale fragments, arpeggios and pentatonics. Since you are familiar with that stuff from your earlier studies, this is when you figure out how to put it together.

Here’s where it gets interesting - So you’re working on a solo, and you can’t hear exactly what’s happening on that 2-5 progression in the 16 bar. So, what? Just make up your own stuff and put it in there! Now that solo is becoming yours. One really great improviser told me once (Actually more than once) that the notes are the LEAST important aspects of soloing. He said, “There’s only 12 notes. How can you screw that up?”

Then you repeat that solo over those changes or that song until you’re unconscious. Play the same solo in all keys. Then work on another solo. Another 4 bar fragment... And another. And another. And another... Copy pianists, sax players, drummers, kazoo players. Do that for years... This is where the vocabulary comes from. It’s about exploration and repetition. Figuring out why this works here and not there, etc. You are taking the alphabet you learned in the first phase and learning to make words in the second. So after awhile, all the stuff you copied and worked on will just start showing up in your playing. But it will be just a little different...

The next phase is where you really start creating and speaking form you own personal vocabulary. I mean, as English speaking people (most here anyway) we ALL learned the same words. But you can still recognize your friend on the phone even though he uses the same words you use every day. Same with music. Stanley Clarke and I could both play the exact same musical phrase using the exact same notes. But most can recognize Stanley Clarke instantly. Me? Not so much...

This is probably also why all babies sound the same. They have no vocabulary or muscle memory in their vocal chords.

So, that’s the way I see the process. All of these “phases” overlap also. You are going to be working on new alphabet stuff at the same time you assimilate ideas and create your own.

I know there’s a lot of room for argument here, but other people can do what they want. This is how I plan to approach it.

[Matthew_84]

Nice post Spin Doctor

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by bongostealth

So I've been bitten by the jazz bug. There are some UNBELIEVABLE improvisational players out there that just boggle my mind with their lines. I don't have any formal musical training and probably won't be going to bass school any time soon as I am currently in law school.

Either way, how can I learn to play like the following individuals: Hadrien Feraud, Evan Marien, Dana Hawkins, Robert "Bubby" Lewis, Damian Erskine, among others.

No matter how hard I try to come up with improvisational lines, my lines and approach always ends up sounding nothing like improvisational jazz. Maybe I'm not creative enough with my playing and/or don't know my scales and modes.

It's all about 'internalisation' most of the players you have listed were brought up in environments where music was always around them...not just pop music, but all types of music. They did not just pick up a bass and then were "turned on to listening to music" it was being infused into them all their lives, so they knew how the wanted to phrase, or play the ideas they had in their heads.....bass was just the instrument they choose to represent it on.

For any player to just discover any genre and decide to play it is not the problem, it is the understanding of what goes where and how other parts interact. Understanding it is not nessesary the key, being able to have a feel for it..an instinct for what and where notes go is the first part and that comes from listening. If at twenty one a player who has been playing bass from the age of fourteen decides to start listening to and playing jazz they have six years of playing but no experience of jazz.
Where as a person who grew up with patents who all ways listened to jazz and other forms of music, and has always had it in their life, enjoyed listening to it and was intrigued by what they heard to find more such music........well if at fourteen they decide to play bass, after a year or playing bass they have fifteen years on the other player of being 'in jazz'.
Where as the other player, after a year of playing jazz only has one year to draw on.....and most of that could be trying to play rather than listening.
Despite playing bass for longer the older player is at a disadvantage over the newer one because playing well is as much having the feel to place the notes and runs within the music....not the physical act of playing them. This is why when you listen to such players you hear a series of notes, some played so fast you cannot pick them out, but other just hear the music these note play and know where to start looking for them, and more so who to recreate such runs and ideas for themselves.

So I would say listen, listen and listen some more. Do not try and play all the notes of what you hear, just join in and play the music and develop playing the music you hear, not the skills....the skills will follow and develop out of pure necessity for you to play what you are listening to.

One of the best things I ever got from music was no matter how complicated, fast or furious any music is, you can put a simple bass line to it. Try it, take any solo piece by any of the artists you enjoy and you can put another bass line under anything the have done?
Remember if the bass is playing solo then that is not supporting line, it is the lead line, so another line can be put to it to support that lead line.

Try to hear jazz as a series of lines that can function in many forms, played on any instrument...un-learn the idea that bass is always the lowest sounding and always supports.....this is a pop music idea.....not a musical one, then listen to that idea in classical music, folk music, big band etc......but listen for the other instruments that are ' bass' instruments within the arrangements, so brass, strings, woodwind, left hand piano etc...it's all about listening....more so than about playing to develop the skills and chops there's players have.....after all you cannot play what you cannot imagine or recall, no more so that any actor can pull off playing a part they cannot envisage or remember the lines to, and you have seen plenty of those films I bet?

So for me I would say spend more time listening than playing and let your instincts for the music catch up with your physical skills, and find a good teacher to help guide you to what is good listening and what is not.
This point is important, because you could listen to and learn lots of songs, but they might not offer anything substantially new or different.
I could learn one hundred classic blues songs, but reality is I could probley get the same musical understanding from just a dozen of them rather than learning all of them. But another reality is I can hear the variations in the other songs and learn them by listening not playing because I worked on the correct twelve songs that opened the others up to me.
Enjoy the experience, time in jazz is never wasted, it will make you a better player regardless of what you decide to play.

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by Spin Doctor

Since I’m currently trying to figure this improvisation thing out I’m gonna give my take on it. The disclaimer is that this could all be complete BS so you can take it for what it’s worth.

I know there’s a lot of room for argument here, but other people can do what they want. This is how I plan to approach it.

OK, good luck with that.
Have a blessed day.

[cire113]

Spin Doctor Offers excellent advice and insight into improvisation....

Music is a language; and with Jazz improvisation the most important thing is listening and transcribing/imitating the language;

If i had to pick one thing that is the most important it is this....

You could throw everything else out the window but if you have good ears you can learn the jazz language..

Cheers

[Spin Doctor]

I appreciate the comments cire113. And I agree, music is a language and you learn it the same way you learned to speak as a child. By, as you said, imitating the language. By age ten, a child can have some pretty insightful conversations.

Likewise, Paul Chambers was playing with Miles by age 19. Scott LaFaro was playing with Bill by age 21, after having started on the bass at age 17. I don't think it takes that long to get it, IF you get it. It's not rocket science and it's not about theory. People don't write songs based on theory. They write them based on what sounds good. They use theory to explain it after the fact.

If it took a person 20, 30 or 40 years to learn to have a conversation, you'd consider that person mentally challenged...

[hgiles]

Spin Doctor has provided some good advice. Clark Terry's mantra has yet to be disproven - "Imitate, Assimilate, Innovate". You won't go wrong with this formula. At the same time you should endeavor to bring together the art, the language, and the science of music. It's a tall order and a lot to do, but there is a worthwhile reward in the end. So how do you start? Just start!

Consider this: Someone walks up to a musician and says "play something for me." You probably have an idea of what happens next. They invariably go back and forth for way longer than necessary until the request is made to be something far more specific.

A similar thing happens with improvisation. At first the demand seems to be open ended and insurmountable. I remember early on someone (non-musician) telling me to 'just play what you feel'. In an improvisational context that gives me WAY too many options and the end result is that it is paralyzing. My advice is to narrow down your choices, i.e. Think "I am going to start this solo around the 3rds of the chords..." If you can't get to all the thirds easily enough on the entire tune, then you know which exercises you need to start practicing. So on and so forth. I used to do exercises for the sake of doing exercises, now I do them with a sense of how I will make use of them in an improvisational context.

In the end there is no doubt that you need a wealth of things under your fingers.

Arpeggios, scales, licks -- fill the well with these rudiments, so that you will have something to draw from. The best solos are brought forth from the simplest ideas carried though.

[Ed Fuqua]

As always, Spin, since you are hewing very strongly to your approach, it would be very informative to hear exactly where that's gotten you.

[cire113]

Anyways have any of you guys checked out the articles on JazzAdvice.com....

I think the guys on that site are fantastic and offer alot of good insights into jazz improvisation..

All of their articles are seperated into different categories making it easy to find specific things....

There is also alot of great masterclasses on Youtube by the masters available also

[Spin Doctor]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

As always, Spin, since you are hewing very strongly to your approach, it would be very informative to hear exactly where that's gotten you.

What do you mean, "gotten me"? It's gotten me closer to the music. That's all that matters to me. I started fronting my own jazz trio and we gig pretty regularly. I've played country, Alt Rock, blues and funk, in a few different groups. I've been told that I'm pretty good at the bass playing thing.

And wow as long as it took you, I'd think you would have jazz figured out. You do anything for 40 plus years and you should have a pretty good idea about it. I've been playing less than 5, although I have a very good teacher that allows me to bypass the more useless stuff. You've been taking lessons twice as long as I've been playing even after you supposedly learned to play. I may not have as much experience as you, but I absolutely know that I get it. I get this music thing. I get how it works, what it takes... I just have to put in some more seat time.

So what has your thing gotten you? You played a few tunes in a studio somewhere? Played on some stage or bar somewhere? Same here. You make it sound like you're curing cancer or something. Dude, all you do is play bass. Period. It honestly doesn't mean anything in the big picture. It's a nice thing to do. Yeah, we all know about the healing power of music, it's high art, it's spiritual, etc... If however you got "where you are" has worked for you, I'm happy for you. But you don't know everything. Not even close. I'm just stating my opinions and perspectives. If yours and mine differ, who cares? I don't... What I wish you would do is get over yourself. And I know I'm not the first person to think this and you know yourself it's true.

Look. Just go do your thing man, and enjoy it, ok? I don't know you and honestly, you don't mean anything to me, so I'd appreciate it if you would stop coming at me with your superior attitude. Let me do my thing in peace. I'm going to do this my way.

And you have a blessed day too.

[cire113]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

As always, Spin, since you are hewing very strongly to your approach, it would be very informative to hear exactly where that's gotten you.

I don't understand the point of your posts honestly.....

Instead of making personal attacks why not offer something insightful to the conversation....

Music is well beyond "how good you are" and "where has it gotten you"

Totally missing the point here.... I wont even go into more detail;

Music is greater than all of these things;

I would love to hear what anyone has to say on the subject of improvisation regarding anything within the thread

[Matthew_84]

Originally Posted by cire113

Anyways have any of you guys checked out the articles on JazzAdvice.com....

I think the guys on that site are fantastic and offer alot of good insights into jazz improvisation..

All of their articles are seperated into different categories making it easy to find specific things....

There is also alot of great masterclasses on Youtube by the masters available also

LOL, as a side note: thanks for the link, Cire.

[Ed Fuqua]

First, CIRE, there are any number of ways to access the "insightful" contributions concerning the "subject of improvisation" I have made on this site, I don't think it's necessary to retype them in every thread about jazz improvisation. If you are seriously having trouble finding them, let me know and I'll send you the links. And as much as you would like to think that this is personal and missing the point, please consider the following - what we know to be true, we know from our own experience, however we have all had different experiences. In my experience, which again I am happy to provide examples of WHAT I am talking about, WHY I think it's important, HOW it helped me, what Spin is talking about is pretty misinformed and based on a lack of experience. I could be wrong and what would help me understand whether or not I am is to actually hear him play this music. Hence my request, and my apologies if it wasn't clear I was asking for soundfiles or a link to a CD or something; I'm not asking for any kind of list or resume.

And, again nothing personal, but Spin when you say stuff like "having jazz figured out" and " I get this music thing", it just reiterates how much you don't "get it". There is always something new, somewhere deeper, always more. Which is why I studied with someone who has a deeper understanding of this music than I do. And why I continue to work on the path he laid out, with the methods that got me out of "sounding like" I could play and into actually playing.
And that's the reason I want to hear what you sound like playing this music; much of the methodology you espouse is exactly what I tried and is exactly what got me to hitting a brick wall. You talk about putting in more "seat time", I'm here to tell you that does not get you any deeper into the music. It doesn't just happen, you have to work at it and you have to work on some pretty specific skill sets to get there. It's great that after 5 years you've got some stuff going on (even if you're a little less enthusiastic about letting anyone hear what that sounds like), but you still only have 5 years of experience. Why so hesitant to discount the words of someone with much more?

[Spin Doctor]

I suppose one of the points that I was trying to make earlier, was that learning jazz honestly doesn't take quite as long as people think, as long as you can stay immersed in the music, and communicate with it as much as possible. If it took that much time, we wouldn't have any jazz as we know it, since most of the jazz we tend to revere was made by guys in their 20's, a lot with 10 or less years of playing experience. Chambers and Parker were both dead at 39. LaFaro at 25...

But since this whole thing has gotten so way out there, I'll end my part and say, OK Ed you're right. Thanks!