How long to transcribe and learn?

[netgeist]

I've seen many threads about how long it takes to learn covers. My situation's a bit different, so I thought I'd post it here.

Basically, I want to know how long it should take someone of about my skill level to transcribe and learn a song. I took up the bass a little over a year ago, having no real experience with another instrument. I will work my tail off to learn a song but my music theory and ear learning skills are pretty low at this point.

I've paired with a guitar player to do originals and he's a great player, songwriter and all-around musician. We're playing originals, which I prefer. But I have this horrible fear of holding people back because it seems to me that I am learning too slowly. I transcribe the bass by ear and referencing his chord charts, which takes me so long that I really don't seem to have enough time to practice actually playing them. To date, I am learning 3 songs and am at almost a month of learning them.

So, what should my expectation be for transcribing and learning original songs?

Thanks,

- netgeist

[bluesdogblues]

IMHO it also depends on the songs. How difficult are they. Of course it takes long time like forever at the start.
But the more you do it, the more skill you got at it, and you'll be faster. Just like other skills.

Only my 2 cents.

[netgeist]

They don't *seem* that hard. When I do the chorus and verses, it doesn't take me long to get something solid down. But the bridges and solos are taking so long that I haven't really played the song through by the time the next practice rolls around.

- netgeist

[JimmyM]

You're a good candidate for lessons. You're just starting but you're eager to learn, and the problem is you're not a teacher so you just don't know the best way to teach yourself how to do it. Get with someone who's skilled in reading and jazz concepts if you can.

[netgeist]

While I am not opposed to lessons, they don't fit into my budget right now. I am curious, though - why do you recommend jazz, specifically?

As for just starting, I've been at it for a little over a year. Is that considered just starting in most players' minds? Where should I be at this point?

- netgeist

[JimmyM]

I'll tell you why jazz...jazz teachers are by far the best teachers, and while other types of music do have a lot to teach you, jazz gives you a much greater foundation of knowledge that can be applied to all other types of music and make them MUCH easier for you.

OK, so if you can't swing a teacher, maybe get a few books or DVD's...I'd recommend Roy Vogt's Teach Me Bass Guitar series, or for an inexpensive book to start out with, maybe "Building Walking Basslines" by Ed Friedland. But if you can swing a teacher who knows jazz, I highly recommend it.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by netgeist

.........I've paired with a guitar player to do originals and he's a great player, songwriter and all-around musician. We're playing originals, which I prefer. But I have this horrible fear of holding people back because it seems to me that I am learning too slowly. I transcribe the bass by ear and referencing his chord charts, which takes me so long that I really don't seem to have enough time to practice actually playing them. To date, I am learning 3 songs and am at almost a month of learning them.

So, what should my expectation be for transcribing and learning original songs?- netgeist

If it will help take the chord chart, he gave you, on stage with you. Yep, you heard me right. If you are still learning standing on the back row with a music stand is OK.

Follow along with the chord chart and play generic bass lines. See a major chord you know that roots or roots and fives will work and the old stand by R-3-5-8 will play a lot of bass. See a minor chord use those same roots, fives or R-b3-5-8.

When that gets to flowing then get fancy. When you no longer need the music stand leave it at home.

[baileyboy]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

I'll tell you why jazz...jazz teachers are by far the best teachers, and while other types of music do have a lot to teach you, jazz gives you a much greater foundation of knowledge that can be applied to all other types of music and make them MUCH easier for you.

OK, so if you can't swing a teacher, maybe get a few books or DVD's...I'd recommend Roy Vogt's Teach Me Bass Guitar series, or for an inexpensive book to start out with, maybe "Building Walking Basslines" by Ed Friedland. But if you can swing a teacher who knows jazz, I highly recommend it.

+1
This goes for any instrument for that matter. My brother is a jazz drummer, having taken lessons and taught for years. Other genres of music come much easier for someone trained in jazz.

[netgeist]

There's some good thoughts and advice in here - I am always pleased with that aspect of the TalkBass community.

I guess what I am looking for is more of an idea of how long it should take me to transcribe and learn a song at this point. Assuming it's a pop/rock song with a fairly straight forward bass line (not just root notes but actual triads and some walking bass), how long should transcribing take? I don't have all of the chords available to me, just the beginning chord to each major section. So, still a lot to be done by ear.

Also, if I have tab in front of me, how long should it take me to learn it?

Just trying to get a better idea of where I am at this point,

- netgeist

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by netgeist

There's some good thoughts and advice in here - I am always pleased with that aspect of the TalkBass community.

I guess what I am looking for is more of an idea of how long it should take me to transcribe and learn a song at this point. Assuming it's a pop/rock song with a fairly straight forward bass line (not just root notes but actual triads and some walking bass), how long should transcribing take?

No one can answer that question; we have no idea what skill level you have now. How much theory do you already know? How good is your ear? I'm going to a gig in about an hour. Yesterday I was given fake chord on two new songs that we will be doing. I've looked them over and played them through once. I'll be able to look at the music as I play these new songs. I'm ready now. But, I've been playing rhythm guitar for over 10 years - bass for over one year.

Not having all the chords just the beginning one. Well assume the rest. If the beginning one is a C you can assume the other two will be F & G7.

I-IV-V
C-F-G7
G-C-D7
D-G-A7
A-D-E7
E-A-B7

Those will probably be the only ones you will run up against.

Pop, Rock or Country assume a I IV V. Four line verse, first chord in the first line will be the I. The IV will come into play near the end of the first line. The IV will continue into the second line and near the end of the second line the V7 chord will come into play and the second line will end quickly with the return to the I chord. The 3rd and 4th line will repeat this same progression. That same chord progression will continue through out the song.

Will it always be like that? No. But it will be close enough for you to jamm along. After your ear gets better then you can assume this and react as the song does deviate from this ole standard progression.

Pull up some play-a-long music from the Internet and see if you can keep up using what I just outlined.

How long will that take you. Probably two days to figure it out then once you know how to play from fake chord, you can just look at some fake chord sheet music - on a song you have never heard - and be able to wing a bass line "good enough" to stay with the other guys.

It's not rocket science if you are can work with just being close. Close works with jamming, horse shoes and grenades. If you are one of those that has to be exact, it's going to take you longer.

Also, if I have tab in front of me, how long should it take me to learn it?

Longer than what I've outlined above. Fake chord is faster than tab. A complete song from tab probably to where you can still look at the sheet music as you play - a couple of days to get it down all the way through.

Of course IMHO. Good luck.

[Warfender]

Originally Posted by netgeist

There's some good thoughts and advice in here - I am always pleased with that aspect of the TalkBass community.

I guess what I am looking for is more of an idea of how long it should take me to transcribe and learn a song at this point. Assuming it's a pop/rock song with a fairly straight forward bass line (not just root notes but actual triads and some walking bass), how long should transcribing take? I don't have all of the chords available to me, just the beginning chord to each major section. So, still a lot to be done by ear.

Also, if I have tab in front of me, how long should it take me to learn it?

Just trying to get a better idea of where I am at this point,

- netgeist

When I was in your shoes It would take me an hour give or take 15 mins on the stuff you are talking about. Now, 5 mins.

[Muttleybass]

Originally Posted by netgeist

There's some good thoughts and advice in here - I am always pleased with that aspect of the TalkBass community.

I guess what I am looking for is more of an idea of how long it should take me to transcribe and learn a song at this point. Assuming it's a pop/rock song with a fairly straight forward bass line (not just root notes but actual triads and some walking bass), how long should transcribing take? I don't have all of the chords available to me, just the beginning chord to each major section. So, still a lot to be done by ear.

Also, if I have tab in front of me, how long should it take me to learn it?

Just trying to get a better idea of where I am at this point,

- netgeist

Um... That's kind of like asking "How fast is a car".

If you know a simple 12 bar 1/4/5 blues pattern, that could be adapted to dozens of songs immediately. Another thing is how accurately you want to learn the songs. If you're trying to cop the licks of "Don't Stop Believing" by Journey note for note, it could take a few weeks for a beginner. If you jam Tom Petty's "Runnin' Down A Dream" you could bang it off in a few hours.

If I were you, I would just work hard at it and it will come faster each song you learn. Take Jimmy's advice and take some lessons. That will teach you patterns, like circle of 5ths, etc., that are key to figuring out how songs were put together.

[dvh]

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying you write out a bass line to the guitarist's chord chart and then learn to play it? And this is for pop?

Maybe you need to change things up and create a bass line by ear, then write it down?

EDIT: nevermind, I just re=read your original post and sounds like that is what you are doing already. As has been suggested, you need to get some basic theory and patterns down and then it will become easier.

ALSO: even if covers aren't really your bag, as a beginner especially you can learn a lot from learning from others' lines... you'll see applicability to your original work too...

[Russell L]

To answer your question as to how long it should take you to learn a song, er, uh, well, it depends. For me, a pop tune usually takes about two or three times through, just listening. For hard tunes, maybe thirty minutes of fiddling with it til I can do it without stopping. The best thing is to just keep at it, and you will get better. Lessons might help, if you get a good teacher. If he's not a jazzer, no big deal. The reason folks recommend jazz players for teachers is because, typically, much jazz music is more intricate than a lot of pop music. You'd think that a jazz player would be better trained than a pop player---often the case, but not always.

[netgeist]

Again, good comments. Thanks folks. While I understand that it all depends on the person and the song, it's still important to have a gauge as to how you are doing...so I appreciate everyone that tried to put some numbers around it.

I do think that part of the problem is that I am trying to transcribe the exact bass line from the demo recordings. I am familiar with the Circle of Fifths, I-IV-V progressions and can construct a major or minor scale using the neck as a guideline (but not on the fly yet) but still struggling.

I seem to be combatting two problems:

1) The Chords the guitarist has listed on the chart don't always match the root note that I think sounds best when I play along. Not sure if that's an ear training issue or it's the way chords are constructed.

2) There's a lot of bass fills in the lines on the demo and I might be getting hung up on them.

That fake chord approach sounds like something I might try, though.

- netgeist

[Russell L]

Sometimes the root is not the bass note. Could be the 3rd, 5th, 7th, etc. of the chord. Sometimes the bass note is not even a note that's in the chord. For instance, say, G/C (a G-major triad with a C in the bass).