how to "open" your mind!?

[varunkapahi]

i've been posting a lot of threads in the GI section a lot recently. i have started studying and theres so much to ask and share, so i cant help it!
anyway i had been playing with this band for a a while but i had been sticking to playing the root notes mostly even though i wanted to play something interesting i didnt really have many ideas. now keep in mind i know the chord tones to all the chords that were being used and i had become comfortable with the songs and changes but all i was doing was playing the r-5-8 lines

until today! i had been thinking about harmonizing and resolving my lines wrt the chord sequences and just about how to get beyond playing my old r-5-8 rut. now suddenly a lot of ideas are opening up to the same chord structures i had been playing to! they dont all sound good but am trying them out, thinking while playing and learning what works and what doesnt. am not over doing it enough to get fired or something lol but heres an example

one of the songs go A/C/D/C
i used to play the roots but go upto the note E from the D and then walk back. but now i can think of things like going descending with the notes A/G/F#/E for every measure and then walk up to the root A for the next cycle and stuff like that.

anyone else ever suddenly have this kind of a awakening onto the same things you have already known forever but now you can see more!? have any ideas on how to go further with this>?

[MalcolmAmos]

Yes all kind of things you can do.
1. Expand beyond R-5-8. Use the chord spelling, i.e. a major chord = R-3-5-3 in 4/4 time. A minor chord = 1-b3-5-b3. The dominant seventh, aka C7 = R-3-5-b7.

2. Use the pentatonic scale and change with the chord changes Major pentatonic = 1-2-3-5-6. Minor pentatonic = 1-b3-4-5-b7.

WWW.studybass.com has a whole section on different "riffs" using the pentatonic scale.

Course you are correct - root nothing works and may be what the songs needs, if you are off messing around with other stuff, that may not be best. Chord tones and a groove.........

Good luck.

[uglyrumor]

Listen to a lot of Jazz, and for the master, listen to Phil Lesh. His experiments with time and place open horizons you never could imagine.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by varunkapahi

one of the songs go A/C/D/C
i used to play the roots but go upto the note E from the D and then walk back.

You have a list of four letters so what are the chords being used.
A what to C what to D what to C what if you get my drift.
What's the tempo, is there a rhythm to consider, what's the key, what are the others instruments to this layer, can you look to another genre for a hook or a middle 8...? There is so much you can do if you use your imagination, but you need more info to help you make a decision on what can work, what will work, and most important what is out there to use to make it work.

Expand your listening outside your genre and take in all musical ideas to use and colour your playing and ultimately your bands foundation, while staying true to your bands sound.

[varunkapahi]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

You have a list of four letters so what are the chords being used.
A what to C what to D what to C what if you get my drift.
What's the tempo, is there a rhythm to consider, what's the key, what are the others instruments to this layer, can you look to another genre for a hook or a middle 8...? There is so much you can do if you use your imagination, but you need more info to help you make a decision on what can work, what will work, and most important what is out there to use to make it work.

Expand your listening outside your genre and take in all musical ideas to use and colour your playing and ultimately your bands foundation, while staying true to your bands sound.

plain major chords dude, capital letters stand for the major chords afaik right?
whats a middle 8?

[JTE]

Originally Posted by varunkapahi

anyway i had been playing with this band for a a while but i had been sticking to playing the root notes mostly even though i wanted to play something interesting i didnt really have many ideas.

There's the crux of the situation. You gotta have ideas before all this music theory does you any good. I'm a bit of a theory geek, but it's meaningless without ideas. The difference between a good player and a great one often is that the great one has a LOT of GOOD ideas.

How to get ideas? That's where listening (that verb "listen" means a lot more than having a song playing while you're on the computer) to a lot of different kinds of music. Listening closely to different stuff opens up a lot more ideas than listening closely to a lot stuff that's ultimately similar.

And, here's another thing that I think is vital (and too often over-looked). When you're trying to come up with a bass line for a song, start with your bass safely locked up in its case. LISTEN to the song, progression, whatever several times without even thinking of the mechanics, what the chords are, etc. LISTEN to the song. Then SING out loud what you think would be a good bass line. At this point you've still got your bass in its case, and you're not thinking "Root, b5 6 6 3", etc. You're singing what sounds good to you.

Once you have a good sounding line in your head, record yourself singing that line. Now, and only now, get your bass out of its case, and learn PRECISELY what you sang. Don't adapt it so it lies easier on the bass. Don't change it because some of the notes don't "fit" the chord, etc. Make your fingers find the music that was in your head.

Then use your theory chops to figure out what you came up with. That's what theory is- a description of what has GENERALLY worked for most people in certain cultures.

John

[Richard Lindsey]

To all this excellent advice I would simply add that not all "interest" is to be found simply by playing different pitches. What makes a line interesting is sometimes not just the pitches used (though that is vital) but also the rhythms, or the nuances of inflection.

As you listen closely to music, focus not only on whether the notes are root-root-root or root-five or whatever but also on the rhythms. As an exercise, try using only root notes, but explore the effects of different rhythms--syncopated, on the beat, busy, sparse, etc. See how much you can affect how a song feels by these means.

Also listen to HOW the notes are played, insofar as you can make it out on the recordings--staccato, sustained, soft attack, sharp attack, accented, unaccented, etc.

You can often make fairly simple harmonic choices really "pop" by using rhythm and touch effectively.

None of that is to say you shouldn't explore harmonic alternatives. You should. Just don't forget this other stuff.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by varunkapahi

plain major chords dude, capital letters stand for the major chords afaik right?
whats a middle 8?

Point taken, but never assume capitol letters mean Major, so usually for chords

M, Maj = Major
m, min = minor

so there is no confusing when you see A7 which is not an A Maj7 but a dominant 7 and that is shown as A7. From dim to aug, b5 to 9#5 there are many varied ways to describe a chord, so familiarize yourself with them if you can.
Many players are lax in chord terms and as an a occasional house player for jams i get the " it in G mate" and that could mean Major or minor because the player in question does not understand that bass players use keys and chord tones to define the bed they will play on so make it more interesting and supportive for them.

Middle 8, well its a common musical device used to break up a song or introduce a new key or chords, do a search on it.
Also search Music bridge and Music head, these are basic song composition devices that players should be aware of.
If you are not using them in your writing try them, they can give great expansion within you writing and help keep songs in context as well as set up.......well lets say you try some and see what you can do LOL.

Again they all add colour and introduce ways of keeping a song moving, have fun with it.

[varunkapahi]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Point taken, but never assume capitol letters mean Major, so usually for chords

M, Maj = Major
m, min = minor

so there is no confusing when you see A7 which is not an A Maj7 but a dominant 7 and that is shown as A7. From dim to aug, b5 to 9#5 there are many varied ways to describe a chord, so familiarize yourself with them if you can.
Many players are lax in chord terms and as an a occasional house player for jams i get the " it in G mate" and that could mean Major or minor because the player in question does not understand that bass players use keys and chord tones to define the bed they will play on so make it more interesting and supportive for them.

Middle 8, well its a common musical device used to break up a song or introduce a new key or chords, do a search on it.
Also search Music bridge and Music head, these are basic song composition devices that players should be aware of.
If you are not using them in your writing try them, they can give great expansion within you writing and help keep songs in context as well as set up.......well lets say you try some and see what you can do LOL.

Again they all add colour and introduce ways of keeping a song moving, have fun with it.

from how am used to things A is Amajor and A7 is dom7th, Amaj7 is written like that. anyway no biggie

hmmm ok thats what is middle 8, its common indeed

so what am now wondering is, when to harmonize and play other notes than the root on the down beats with emphasis and when not to? sometimes you can build up tension and then resolve it. but other times i feel like its not leading anywhere and am just aimlessly going for chord tones other than the root

[mambo4]

Originally Posted by varunkapahi

so what am now wondering is, when to harmonize and play other notes than the root on the down beats with emphasis and when not to? sometimes you can build up tension and then resolve it. but other times i feel like its not leading anywhere and am just aimlessly going for chord tones other than the root

Honestly, 99.9% of downbeats I play are root notes. The chord tones and passing tones apply as a method of connecting the roots together. If I were playign a Jazz walking line that number might drop to 90%...

Playign non-root notes will create more tension, generally. Your choice of when to use non-roots should be informed by the flow of tension and release in the song itself, or in the phrases that others are playing.
(Non- root downbeats also create tension with your fellow band members )

I sometimes think of my task as "framing" the phrases that others are playing, and the strongest "frame " is one built with roots. One rule of thumb I use is that if anyone else is playign something interesting, emotive, or otherwise important to the song, I'm going to keep my choices as basic as possible, which in practice means I'm almost always playign root on the 1. If the song is hanging on the same chord for several bars, or if the chords are in the "middle" of phrase, there is room for exploration.

[joannegiblin]

just relax and let your mind is free

[ryco]

If ya want an interesting "woo woo" fix, read Kenny Werner's "Effortless Mastery".

[varunkapahi]

Originally Posted by mambo4

Honestly, 99.9% of downbeats I play are root notes. The chord tones and passing tones apply as a method of connecting the roots together. If I were playign a Jazz walking line that number might drop to 90%...

Playign non-root notes will create more tension, generally. Your choice of when to use non-roots should be informed by the flow of tension and release in the song itself, or in the phrases that others are playing.
(Non- root downbeats also create tension with your fellow band members )

I sometimes think of my task as "framing" the phrases that others are playing, and the strongest "frame " is one built with roots. One rule of thumb I use is that if anyone else is playign something interesting, emotive, or otherwise important to the song, I'm going to keep my choices as basic as possible, which in practice means I'm almost always playign root on the 1. If the song is hanging on the same chord for several bars, or if the chords are in the "middle" of phrase, there is room for exploration.

thanks

[the_hook]

Originally Posted by JTE

There's the crux of the situation. You gotta have ideas before all this music theory does you any good. I'm a bit of a theory geek, but it's meaningless without ideas. The difference between a good player and a great one often is that the great one has a LOT of GOOD ideas.

How to get ideas? That's where listening (that verb "listen" means a lot more than having a song playing while you're on the computer) to a lot of different kinds of music. Listening closely to different stuff opens up a lot more ideas than listening closely to a lot stuff that's ultimately similar.

And, here's another thing that I think is vital (and too often over-looked). When you're trying to come up with a bass line for a song, start with your bass safely locked up in its case. LISTEN to the song, progression, whatever several times without even thinking of the mechanics, what the chords are, etc. LISTEN to the song. Then SING out loud what you think would be a good bass line. At this point you've still got your bass in its case, and you're not thinking "Root, b5 6 6 3", etc. You're singing what sounds good to you.

Once you have a good sounding line in your head, record yourself singing that line. Now, and only now, get your bass out of its case, and learn PRECISELY what you sang. Don't adapt it so it lies easier on the bass. Don't change it because some of the notes don't "fit" the chord, etc. Make your fingers find the music that was in your head.

Then use your theory chops to figure out what you came up with. That's what theory is- a description of what has GENERALLY worked for most people in certain cultures.

John

What happens when you have a lot of ideas, but can't decipher what context (key, scales, modes, chords) you are working within? Or have the inability to convey your music to another musician (guitar, keys) in a language they can understand and use to create their part, etc?

One example is I created a bass 'song' that I used to jam with my son on drums. I later met a guitarist that liked it and wanted to know what it is so he could create his guitar part for it. When I created the song it was just a small part that sounded cool, then I worked at it until there were other parts that just sounded 'right' with the 'body' of it.

But I have no idea what key it's in, what the parts of a song are called (intro, outro, chorus, etc), if the notes I'm using fit within a chord structure, etc. Some people say it sounds funky, other say it sounds jazzy. All I know is when I play it peoples heads start bobbing, the drum piece fits perfectly and now we have a guitar piece that fits with it as well. The guitarist (who has years of playing over me) created a solo part that he plays while I churn out my solo part.

How do I deconstruct it into its constituent parts?

[mambo4]

Originally Posted by the_hook

What happens when you have a lot of ideas, but can't decipher what context (key, scales, modes, chords) you are working within?
Or have the inability to convey your music to another musician (guitar, keys) in a language they can understand and use to create their part, etc?
How do I deconstruct it into its constituent parts?

This is EXACTLY the purpose of learning music theory. Time to hit the books. Or get a teacher.

If you can't figure out what key you're in, or what scale you are using, or what chords you are outlining, or at the very least name what notes you are playing,
all that remains is for other musicians to learn YOUR part and deduce the theory or intuit by ear.

[MarkMcBass]

Originally Posted by varunkapahi

i've been posting a lot of threads in the GI section a lot recently. i have started studying and theres so much to ask and share, so i cant help it!
anyway i had been playing with this band for a a while but i had been sticking to playing the root notes mostly even though i wanted to play something interesting i didnt really have many ideas. now keep in mind i know the chord tones to all the chords that were being used and i had become comfortable with the songs and changes but all i was doing was playing the r-5-8 lines

until today! i had been thinking about harmonizing and resolving my lines wrt the chord sequences and just about how to get beyond playing my old r-5-8 rut. now suddenly a lot of ideas are opening up to the same chord structures i had been playing to! they dont all sound good but am trying them out, thinking while playing and learning what works and what doesnt. am not over doing it enough to get fired or something lol but heres an example

one of the songs go A/C/D/C
i used to play the roots but go upto the note E from the D and then walk back. but now i can think of things like going descending with the notes A/G/F#/E for every measure and then walk up to the root A for the next cycle and stuff like that.

anyone else ever suddenly have this kind of a awakening onto the same things you have already known forever but now you can see more!? have any ideas on how to go further with this>?

start with the basic chord progression of the song..use the scales that go with them to play around in them. try majors or minors depending on the progressions, try different modes and find one you like! build up a walk line in those progressions..add to it...go to non walk lines music leaves you endless possibilities!

[JTE]

Originally Posted by the_hook

What happens when you have a lot of ideas, but can't decipher what context (key, scales, modes, chords) you are working within? Or have the inability to convey your music to another musician (guitar, keys) in a language they can understand and use to create their part, etc? (SNIP)

That, as mambo4 says, is why you study music theory. And "... convey your music to another musician in a language they can understand..." is why we learn music. See, I'm convinced Jimi Hendrix knew a good bit of theory, but he didn't know it in terms of "the b9 chord contains both the minor and major third", but only the "that chord that James Browns horns play give this cool sound so I'm going to use it on "Purple Haze"". But if you learn some theory you'll be able to talk to more musicians than if you just say "it goes like this".

Originally Posted by the_hook

(SNIP)
But I have no idea what key it's in, what the parts of a song are called (intro, outro, chorus, etc), if the notes I'm using fit within a chord structure, etc... How do I deconstruct it into its constituent parts?

Then start with determining what notes you're playing, group them by phrases, and start working out what it is you're doing. It's often not neat and tidy, but you can start making sense as you work it out. But you gotta work on it so this stuff comes second nature.

That's why I despise almost all the modal theory junk that gets posted here. They're pretty much a convoluted way to get at something really pretty simple, and it seems to be just a way for teachers to give students something to practice. If you know how to find the notes on the fingerboard, and you know basic harmony theory (that is, you know that a major chord is 1 3 5, a minor is 1 b3 5, a 7th is 1 3 5 b7, a minor 7 is 1 b3 5 b7, a diminished is 1 b3 b5 bb7, and an augmented is 1 3 #5), and you can figure out for yourself (NOT using a lame crutch like a chart or diagram) the notes in all 12 major scales, then you can start working your way through this stuff.

John

[Jim Campbell]

Originally Posted by JTE

That, as mambo4 says, is why you study music theory. And "... convey your music to another musician in a language they can understand..." is why we learn music. See, I'm convinced Jimi Hendrix knew a good bit of theory, but he didn't know it in terms of "the b9 chord contains both the minor and major third", but only the "that chord that James Browns horns play give this cool sound so I'm going to use it on "Purple Haze"". But if you learn some theory you'll be able to talk to more musicians than if you just say "it goes like this".



Then start with determining what notes you're playing, group them by phrases, and start working out what it is you're doing. It's often not neat and tidy, but you can start making sense as you work it out. But you gotta work on it so this stuff comes second nature.

That's why I despise almost all the modal theory junk that gets posted here. They're pretty much a convoluted way to get at something really pretty simple, and it seems to be just a way for teachers to give students something to practice. If you know how to find the notes on the fingerboard, and you know basic harmony theory (that is, you know that a major chord is 1 3 5, a minor is 1 b3 5, a 7th is 1 3 5 b7, a minor 7 is 1 b3 5 b7, a diminished is 1 b3 b5 bb7, and an augmented is 1 3 #5), and you can figure out for yourself (NOT using a lame crutch like a chart or diagram) the notes in all 12 major scales, then you can start working your way through this stuff.

John

yep.....i drew a bunch of diagrams,but in the end i didn't need 'em......sitting down and working them out,slowly playing and saying out loud each note (chord tone)in every key.....then repeat until you know them in your sleep...... it's way more effective.....there is no good substitute for doing the work....

[mambo4]

Originally Posted by Jim Campbell

yep.....i drew a bunch of diagrams...

Drawing out diagrams yourself can be, i think , a valuable exercise. I still remember the revelation the day I graphed out all the notes of C major across an imaginary 10 string fret board. Finally made me realize that all the different fingering positions were just fragments of the same, larger pattern.

I had As long as you'r not just googling charts or copying them, but actually sitting with your bass and working stuff out on your own.

[varunkapahi]

i'd like to add its so much fun playing with any open mind, each time you play the same song you are thinking about different things. you get out of the rut and into the zone! even all your ideas dont work they will start to over time! its just amazing to not to be stagnant with your thinking