How To Practicing Locking In Without A Drummer

[TSkills]

What are some ways I can practice locking in with a drummer using just a drum machine?

[bassbrad]

Drum machines and metronomes can be a great tool but a better tool for learning is listening to recordings and playing along. Locking in with a drummer and groove is all about feel, until you feel it you will never be able to count it.

[MalcolmAmos]

Blues backing tracks are very predictable - a 12 bar blues progression is a 12 bar blues progression.

Lock on the drum and see where it takes you.

[aledeville]

Maybe AddictiveDrums (or any other drum plugin) could be something. Take any DAW and make your own drumfiles.

I recommend also to play with a looper (e.g. Jamman/RC-2 etc.) because you have a immediate response how you've played.
YES, IT CAN BE FRUSTRATING

[St Drogo]

Originally Posted by aledeville

I recomment also to play with a looper (e.g. Jamman/RC-2 etc.) because you have a immediate response how you've played.

I wouldn't. Those things can get out of sync quickly, which is crap enough as is, but if you're trying to hone your grooveskills and tightness, it's even more a bad idea, I think.

[raymondl3]

Record yourself and the drum machine and listen back.

[Fergie Fulton]

Find a way that you and the drummer can relate to the songs, for me that usually means we learn all the parts. This gives us so many ways to relate to where we are, where we're going, and gives the others the foundation to play off of us. In the link is a great example of playing the bass and drums in time and in its in motion. By that i mean you could set a clock to it as it flows with no real hesitation or doubt involved, the go for it and come out the other end together.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-ZdmlKX06A

[aledeville]

Originally Posted by St Drogo

I wouldn't. Those things can get out of sync quickly, which is crap enough as is, but if you're trying to hone your grooveskills and tightness, it's even more a bad idea, I think.

I beg you pardon? Please rethink what you've just said.
You've never played with the RC-2 did you? Why do you say something you have absolutely nothing to say about?

[Muaguana]

Start with whatever preset loops you have and just jam away. Experiment. Play with accenting subdivisions of the beat instead of the downbeat. Really pay attention to how the groove changes depending on how you space and articulate the notes, and which pieces of the kit you accent or avoid. And have fun with it.

[Eminentbass]

I'd say it's not something you can really practice with a device. All drummers are different and locking in comes as a result of listening to each one you play with. They need to do the same because essentially they're locking in with the bassist too. It's more to do with the chemistry within the rhythm section and having an understanding of function.

[tobie]

Look at page 9 & 10 of Alex Sampson's (free) 'Groove suck method' document (http://www.basslessons4free.com/ - if the verbal diarree() bugs you, go right to the end of the page and subscribe to get it mailed to you). It comes with live video support & jamtrax which you might or might not want to make use of.

Alternatively PM me and I'll mail the doc to you (with Alex' permission - he made it available as a shareware .pdf).

[dtiii]

I think that 'locking in' is about being in control of the time. While a drum machine or some sort of rhythm track is fun to play with, it doesn't put the responsibility of control in your hands. A metronome does. It teaches you how to negotiate the time from one click to the next. There are different ways to use the metronome aside from clicking each beat of the pulse grouping. Try these different settings:

With the click...
accent beats 1 and 3 of a quad grouping
accent beats 2 and 4 of a quad grouping
accent beat 2 of a quad grouping
accent beat 3 of a quad grouping
accent beat 4 of a quad grouping
accent beat 2 of a triple grouping
accent beat 3 of a triple grouping
etc...

Also, take notice that slower tempos are more difficult than moderate and fast tempos. Lastly, I have my students work with and without the metronome. The metronome serves to help you develop and internalize a solid sense of time that you want to be able to execute on your own.

Hope this helps.
d

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by aledeville

I beg you pardon? Please rethink what you've just said.
You've never played with the RC-2 did you? Why do you say something you have absolutely nothing to say about?

yes, all those great bassists from the beginning of time till now got good at locking in the tempo by using a looper.



forget all the gimmicks. there is only one way to get good at locking in...feeling the time. drummers aren't metronomic, so drum machines and clicks, while they will teach you how to play with a click or a drum machine, won't tell you how to compensate for the little time discrepancies every musician has. you've got to get that count solid in your head, and be solid with your fingers as well, and most importantly, you have to LISTEN. the thing that helped me the most was playing along with lots of recordings. never used a metronome in my life until 1995, and by then i was over 20 years into it, but despite not having one, i used to get huge compliments on my time. so it can be done without gimmicks.

btw, i so wish we could get rid of that "locking in" phrase. it's such a nothing, meaningless phrase. i prefer the phrase "keeping good time" because there are so many times it sounds great for the bass not to be following in lockstep with the drummer. as a matter of fact, i go one better and say the drummer should be following the bass, not the other way around.

[Ed Fuqua]

AUNTY EM I know that's your gospel according to St Jeff now, but that's highly inaccurate. My own bitter personal experience is that working in some very specific ways is the ONLY thing that got my time feel happening. And again, it's not just me and the BAIT TACKLE AND GEETAR LESSONS strip mall teachers, it's folks involved in actual music education at actual accredited universities.

Feel free to do what you want, however, it's just one less on the train up here...

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

AUNTY EM I know that's your gospel according to St Jeff now, but that's highly inaccurate. My own bitter personal experience is that working in some very specific ways is the ONLY thing that got my time feel happening. And again, it's not just me and the BAIT TACKLE AND GEETAR LESSONS strip mall teachers, it's folks involved in actual music education at actual accredited universities.

Feel free to do what you want, however, it's just one less on the train up here...

EDDIE FARQUAR, i am not dead set against metronomes like jeffy. in this day and age, playing to a click or along with backing tracks is a pretty necessary skill. so for that reason, i think working with one is essential. however, there comes a time when you have to get off the nome and count the stuff yourself. you also have to be able to react to different musicians and the way they interpret time. for example, my regular drummer is a killer drummer, but has a tendency to rush fills. how will a metronome prepare you for that? also, what happens when he quits playing and you're responsible for the time? i've seen bass players who can lockstep with that nome and completely fall apart in those situations.

so if you have a way to use the metronome that works to prepare you for that, i'm all ears. otherwise i stand by what i said.

[fu22ba55]

A kind of simple way to get your head around drummers is to break it down this way: (an oversimplification for sure)

There are three kinds of drummers:

1) Those that play "behind the beat"

(Bonham, Steve Drozd, Dave Grohl, Bun E. Carlos)

2) Those that play "ahead of the beat"

Most "punk rock" and some faster metal drummers. (Some great, great drummers)

3) Those that are all over the ****ing place.

---

For "behind the beat" drummers, just sit back and enjoy. Think of all the kick drum hits as whole notes. Wait for each one to expire before the next one begins. "Behind the beat" drummers are like a nice worn-in pair of shoes. Comfy and kickass.

For "ahead of the beat" drummers, you're off to the races: Follow them. I almost mean play the slightest bit behind them, but not really. Just don't try to lead them. Don't try to get out in front of them or they will mow you over.

(I played with an "ahead of the beat" drummer for a couple of years, and he adamantly refused to have any bass in his monitors. He did NOT want to hear what I was doing. He made me follow him, and it sounded great: like a school bus full of dynamite rolling down a hill.)

For "all over the place drummers"... it's a tough call. Either ignore them entirely and just do your own thing, or hold their hand and walk them though the weeds so they don't get lost. Or replace them. Or have a few drinks before the show and watch the train wreck.

[Rodger Bryan]

Whether I am playing with a drummer, a click track or drum sequencer, I try to get a handle on how the beats are to be subdivided for a particular tune.

If you want to practice playing around the fixed pulse of a metronome, try setting a slow tempo and subdividing the pulse with even and odd divisions; adding accents at various points or even randomly; then remove certain divisions- Alternately you can set the metronome at a faster tempo and try what dtiii suggested previously.

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

EDDIE FARQUAR, i am not dead set against metronomes like jeffy. in this day and age, playing to a click or along with backing tracks is a pretty necessary skill.

I don't generally play to a click, I think that's mostly pop musicians. The music I play is mostly improvising in an established time stream.

Originally Posted by ANTI M

however, there comes a time when you have to get off the nome and count the stuff yourself. you also have to be able to react to different musicians and the way they interpret time.

If you're counting, you're not playing. what working with a nome helps you do is develop a visceral feel for when you (or anyone else) is pulling or pushing against the original time stream. Just like your ear tells you when someone is out of tune. If you can't play with a relaxed and swinging time feel with a nome, you're sure not going to be able to deal with somebody whose time is all over the place. ASIDE: And that's one thing I don't understand about this argument, if you're playing with somebody whose time is so unsteady how do you EVER develop good time? All you're doing is trying to desperately second guess where the tune your trying to play is gonna end up.

Originally Posted by NTM

for example, my regular drummer is a killer drummer, but has a tendency to rush fills.

And how much work with a nome has he put in?

Originally Posted by ANTIETAM

how will a metronome prepare you for that? also, what happens when he quits playing and you're responsible for the time?

I really try to avoid situations of playing with cats with bad time, it's just not any fun. I don't know if you read the little reviews of the 3 bass workshop at my teacher's studio, but Sean Smith had a nice insight - he said that having somebody on the stand that's rushing or dragging is like walking down the street and having somebody push you or grab you and pull you back. You immediately look around to see what's going on, why there was a disruption. If someone you're playing with DOESN'T have that reaction, it means they're NOT LISTENING. And if you're not listening, you're not making music.
What happens when they quit playing is THE MUSIC STILL MOVES FORWARD; if they've ****ed the time feel bad enough **** can fall apart (again, don't play with somebody like that) but usually somebody has just interposed a "new" time stream. You can either stentoriously restate the original timefeel and give rays or you keep it as musical as possible and just accept and forgive the displacement. One of the reasons I can play duo and keep it swinging is because of the work I've put in with a nome.

Originally Posted by ANTI TIME

i've seen bass players who can lockstep with that nome and completely fall apart in those situations.

This says more about your range of acquaintance than it does about the efficacy of the tool, n'est pas?

Originally Posted by JAMMYMAM

so if you have a way to use the metronome that works to prepare you for that, i'm all ears. otherwise i stand by what i said.

Stand wherever you feel most comfortable. Like I said, it'll be one less on the train. I've outlined the approach I got from my teacher, who got it from his teacher, Lennie Tristano, in any number of posts on this site.

[jallenbass]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

my regular drummer is a killer drummer, but has a tendency to rush fills. how will a metronome prepare you for that?

It'll give you the confidence to know you're right when you say "Dude! You're rushing your fills".

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

I don't generally play to a click, I think that's mostly pop musicians. The music I play is mostly improvising in an established time stream.

fair enough.

Originally Posted by Fred Farquar

If you're counting, you're not playing. what working with a nome helps you do is develop a visceral feel for when you (or anyone else) is pulling or pushing against the original time stream. Just like your ear tells you when someone is out of tune. If you can't play with a relaxed and swinging time feel with a nome, you're sure not going to be able to deal with somebody whose time is all over the place. ASIDE: And that's one thing I don't understand about this argument, if you're playing with somebody whose time is so unsteady how do you EVER develop good time? All you're doing is trying to desperately second guess where the tune your trying to play is gonna end up.

well he's really good at finding work and other than rushing fills, he's a damn good drummer for what we do. as to how i developed good time, he's not the only drummer i ever worked with. besides, how do you think i can tell he's rushing his fills? it's not the end of the world, though. a lot of really good drummers have not-so-perfect time. i can think of two huge drummers off the top of my head that worked all the time even though they rushed a lot...carl palmer and tony thompson. and tony thompson was a funk drummer!

Originally Posted by Fd Euqua

And how much work with a nome has he put in?

don't know. i don't live with him and he lives too far away to socialize regularly.

Originally Posted by Harvey Pekar

I really try to avoid situations of playing with cats with bad time, it's just not any fun. I don't know if you read the little reviews of the 3 bass workshop at my teacher's studio, but Sean Smith had a nice insight - he said that having somebody on the stand that's rushing or dragging is like walking down the street and having somebody push you or grab you and pull you back. You immediately look around to see what's going on, why there was a disruption. If someone you're playing with DOESN'T have that reaction, it means they're NOT LISTENING. And if you're not listening, you're not making music.
What happens when they quit playing is THE MUSIC STILL MOVES FORWARD; if they've ****ed the time feel bad enough **** can fall apart (again, don't play with somebody like that) but usually somebody has just interposed a "new" time stream. You can either stentoriously restate the original timefeel and give rays or you keep it as musical as possible and just accept and forgive the displacement. One of the reasons I can play duo and keep it swinging is because of the work I've put in with a nome.

you've always had a brain, scarecrow!

listen, i hear you. maybe i was just blessed with good time from the getgo. it was never something i had to work on so much. maybe that's jeff's deal, too. i will say this, though...a metronome did help me focus on hearing where the beat drops just a little better than before. but i feel that was a minor point because i always felt it pretty well. and it did push me to play faster than i would have challenged myself to go on my own. so i'm not saying there's no benefit to it. i just question its role in making me have good time, especially when i spent decades without one.

Originally Posted by Ed Nugent

This says more about your range of acquaintance than it does about the efficacy of the tool, n'est pas?

none of the great jazz guys i know around here can get me gigs in arenas and large theaters around the world with actual catering instead of bandwiches (or nothing). besides, i know my place in the world...and it isn't playing jazz. i do occasional light standards gigs, but that's about it.

Originally Posted by Eddie Gaga

Stand wherever you feel most comfortable. Like I said, it'll be one less on the train. I've outlined the approach I got from my teacher, who got it from his teacher, Lennie Tristano, in any number of posts on this site.

hey, you gonna listen to me or are you gonna listen to your friends?



btw, sorry for stealing your gimmick, but it's so funny i have to when i reply to you!

anyway, i believe most people have good time in them. i see a lot of dancers at my shows who seem to have a very good sense of rhythm. irrelevant oversimplication? maybe. but they dance in time so i see no reason they couldn't play in time if they developed the skill set on the instrument.