How to use modes in music?

[fsf347]

Alright, lets say im playing a i-iv-v progression in Gm.

The v, "D" is being played of the 5th fret on the A.

I got to this chord, and thought, "hmm, how am i gunna play the root, and shift back up to the scale tones, there has to be an easier way".

So i discovered that there is a way to play the SAME notes in the scale of Gm, only instead, starting on D.

Would this be correctly using the Mixolydian scale?



EDIT: Noone seemed to answer my question, so let me rephrase...

Im playing a Gm progression (i-iv-v)

I play the notes for both Gm and Cm in 3rd position.

For Dm, i go down to 5th position and play any of the following notes for that chord: D, Eb, F, G, A, Bb, C, D.

Someone said that since that Gm is a minor key, it cant be the Mixolydian scale.

So what am i doing? Just playing the correct scale tones for Gm, starting on D?

[fsf347]

really? not one answer? :P

[somegeezer]

If you were playing Mixolydian, D would become the I and not the V. What you're saying makes no sense to me.

[somegeezer]

If you are playing a Mixolydian mode, it is general for soloing or melody. If you are playing in a C major scale, you would use C Mixolydian to solo or play melody.

[Rudreax]

Since Mixolydian is a mode based off of a major scale, I don't see how you could use it if you're using G minor.

This all depend on whether or not you're soloing or making a bass line. If it's the latter, you don't need to worry about the modes; just focus on outlining a D7 chord.

[kb9wyz]

Consider this, the Minor key is the Aeolian mode. So figure what the Ionian (major) is, first. If you are playing in Gm, then the relative major is Bb. Using the Circle of 5ths, skip 3 keys clockwise to determine relative minor (of a major key), 3 keys counterclockwise for relative major (of a minor key). So the mode for D, in the key of Gm, would be Lydian.

Here would be the modes in C, since this is easiest, in order

I- Ionian: C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C (Major)
ii- Dorian: D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D
iii- Phrygian: E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E
IV- Lydian: F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F
V- Mixolydian: G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G
vi- Aeolian: A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A (Minor)
viio-Locrian: B-C-D-E-F-G-A-B

Or you could memorize the modes as they would be if you are playing in a minor key: (i) Aeolian, (iio) Lociran, (III) Ionian, (iv) Dorian, (v) Phrygian, (VI) Lydian, (VII) Mixolydian.

(The "o" after the Roman numeral, such as "viio" is for a diminished chord. I don't know how to superscript in here.)

[Rudreax]

Originally Posted by kb9wyz

Consider this, the Minor key is the Aeolian mode. So figure what the Ionian (major) is, first. If you are playing in Gm, then the relative major is Bb. Using the Circle of 5ths, skip 3 keys clockwise to determine relative minor (of a major key), 3 keys counterclockwise for relative major (of a minor key). So the mode for D, in the key of Gm, would be Lydian.

Here would be the modes in C, since this is easiest, in order

I- Ionian: C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C (Major)
ii- Dorian: D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D
iii- Phrygian: E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E
IV- Lydian: F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F
V- Mixolydian: G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G
vi- Aeolian: A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A (Minor)
viio-Locrian: B-C-D-E-F-G-A-B

Or you could memorize the modes as they would be if you are playing in a minor key: (i) Aeolian, (iio) Lociran, (III) Ionian, (iv) Dorian, (v) Phrygian, (VI) Lydian, (VII) Mixolydian.

(The "o" after the Roman numeral, such as "viio" is for a diminished chord. I don't know how to superscript in here.)

If you're soloing, I don't think I can agree with this. Since the whole chord progression is meant to define the key (Gm), wouldn't you just solo in G minor? You don't want to play a mode for every different chord because it will make each chord sound different and a little off, when the chords are meant to define the key.

[Groovin_Joe]

Hey,

I know the OP asked about modes. BUT… I have always thought that instead of think in modes just think of the original key.

Eg:

Since we are in Gm, then if you were to play a 'mode' of Gm but with D as your root then just play a Gm scale with a D as the lowest.
… D Eb F G A Bb C D … nevermind what mode that is as long and is in that key. The other option is to play a D Mixolydian scale D E F# G A B C D as that is the perfect match.

That is a real basic way to do things as you can then add other notes as passing tones and 'special' tones but to do what you were wanting then I wouldn't worry too much.

The way i learnt everything is if I learn how each chord and scale relate and then learn the scale tones on the neck for each key. then it doesn't matter what chord tone i am on i can use that as the tonic and i can go from there.

Just my thoughts. thanks for reading.

[jmattbassplaya]

Don`t bother with modes too much. Learning how to play your scales in multiple ways on the neck and where each note can be found is much more useful.

[kb9wyz]

Well, I was speaking of just general mode stuff. Soloing is a strange animal, though. If you want to start playing modally, then you can do it. If you want to play the root scale, then you can do it. If you want to start hammering out chords, I hope you got a strong hand. Seriously, though, as long as what you're playing sounds musical, it doesn't really matter what you play. (Unless you're trying to compose in the Baroque style. )

A wise man once said, "That's why it's called music 'theory' and not music 'fact.'"

[joebass93]

it helps to learn an acronym for the modes to learn the order. i have my own, but its inappropriate...so make your own.

modes are simply different steps on the major scale. A very simple way to play modes is simply thinking of the scale starting from, for example, the 5th. this sound would probably just sound like the major scale (ionian) but you would technically be playing the mixolydian. I eventually just memorized a couple of patterns for how to play each mode independently (i.e. 3 fnotes per string, 2 note son the bottom string, etc.) and wrote them down and simply memorized them, but this wasn't very efficient. Next, i took one mode at a time, and wrote out most of the possible intervals (2nd, 3rd, etc) so that while soloing using modes, I could throw out intervals as I pleased and not have to constantly think about the scale as a whole.

Now, when to use modes is an interesting concept. Honestly, modes (Ive found) can take on two sounds: as their own independent scale, or as simply variations of the major scale. It all depends on what sound you want. Whenever I'm soloing to swing, for example, I typically use mixolydian for all the scales in the 12 bar blues, even if this doesn't fit into the scale. As you mess around with each mode, you will develop an ear for what sounds nice to you for what style. for example, dorian often sound "creepy" (for lack of a better word) when blayed over chords, but perfectly normal when palyed by itself.

I really hope this helped. While I agree with jmattbassplaya about learning the major in several different ways, I think modes are very important to simply learn. But again, it's yoru choice.

[M.Wrenn]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

Don`t bother with modes too much. Learning how to play your scales in multiple ways on the neck and where each note can be found is much more useful.

Im sorry but that is just completely untrue. For beginners it is better to understand and familiarize yourself with scales but in the long run modes are incredibly important and they are crucial to becoming a better musician. It's the same thing as telling someone not to learn to read music because they play punk or something like that. If the person is interested in becoming a better musician, which I assume the OP is, learning about music theory (especially modes) is incredibly useful.

[Rudreax]

Originally Posted by M.Wrenn

Im sorry but that is just completely untrue. For beginners it is better to understand and familiarize yourself with scales but in the long run modes are incredibly important and they are crucial to becoming a better musician. It's the same thing as telling someone not to learn to read music because they play punk or something like that. If the person is interested in becoming a better musician, which I assume the OP is, learning about music theory (especially modes) is incredibly useful.

It is useful to know, but chances are you're going to learn them incorrectly; and, seeing as how they are based off of scales anyway, wouldn't it make more sense to make sure you know SCALES first and then moving to the things that are based off of them?

If you REALLY want to know how to use modes right, learn chord theory inside-out, and then learn scales and finally modes. You use modes in conjunction with chords and chord progressions, so you're going to want to know the thing you use them on well first.

[M.Wrenn]

Originally Posted by Rudreax

It is useful to know, but chances are you're going to learn them incorrectly; and, seeing as how they are based off of scales anyway, wouldn't it make more sense to make sure you know SCALES first and then moving to the things that are based off of them?

If you REALLY want to know how to use modes right, learn chord theory inside-out, and then learn scales and finally modes. You use modes in conjunction with chords and chord progressions, so you're going to want to know the thing you use them on well first.

well put my friend, i agree

[joebass93]

[quote=Rudreax;8442130]If you REALLY want to know how to use modes right, learn chord theory inside-out, and then learn scales and finally modes. QUOTE]

I agree, except for the order. I would put it in this order:
scales, chords, modes. But that's jstu my preference.

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by M.Wrenn

Im sorry but that is just completely untrue. For beginners it is better to understand and familiarize yourself with scales but in the long run modes are incredibly important and they are crucial to becoming a better musician. It's the same thing as telling someone not to learn to read music because they play punk or something like that. If the person is interested in becoming a better musician, which I assume the OP is, learning about music theory (especially modes) is incredibly useful.

What are you talking about? If you know your scales then you know your modes. Period. Even if you don`t know it, you do. It`s much easier to learn scales first and then learn how modes relate to them and the theory behind them.

*addition* I also never said don`t learn theory. Nice assumption, though

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by Rudreax

It is useful to know, but chances are you're going to learn them incorrectly; and, seeing as how they are based off of scales anyway, wouldn't it make more sense to make sure you know SCALES first and then moving to the things that are based off of them?

If you REALLY want to know how to use modes right, learn chord theory inside-out, and then learn scales and finally modes. You use modes in conjunction with chords and chord progressions, so you're going to want to know the thing you use them on well first.

Exactly my point. If you know your scales then learning modes will literally take as long as it takes you to memorize their names.

Although I too would say scales first, then chord theory, then modes.

[M.Wrenn]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

Exactly my point. If you know your scales then learning modes will literally take as long as it takes you to memorize their names.

Although I too would say scales first, then chord theory, then modes.

i think we're all generally on the same page, i think i misunderstood your comment, and i wasnt very articulate to begin with, anyway, glad thats settled

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by M.Wrenn

i think we're all generally on the same page, i think i misunderstood your comment, and i wasnt very articulate to begin with, anyway, glad thats settled

Well I`m happy that`s settled then

[Chris K]

Originally Posted by M.Wrenn

i think we're all generally on the same page,

I doubt it. Modes were spoken of - again - in some recent threads. One of them mentioned them as a basis for funk patterns. Above someone mentions them as material for soloing. I do not write this to deny that one can well look at modes as being 'only' scales, offering alternatives for the more common major and minor scales and ranking them amidst blues-, gypsy-, pentatonic, heptatonic and octotonic scales, to mention only a few. My point is that modes can only be called modes if they affect harmonies as well. Otherwise it would be better to refer to them as modal scales.

In modal music, as in all authentic music based on less common scales, the mode not only affects melodies or bass patterns, but the entire harmonic structure of the music. The true character of such music is mostly reached by using strictly diatonic chords, the mode providing all chord notes. Chromatic progressions or altered chords are not done. So if you should want to compose something in, say, F Lydian, you could only build chords from the Lydian scale fgabcdef and keep F as tone center of your composition. Only then would you attain the often mentioned specific 'atmosphere' of the mode.

Playing modal scales over 'regular' chords has little to do with modal music. If somebody askes: can you play the B Mixolydian scale over the chord of Em, IMHO he/she is definitely over the top with modes. One can only answer 'maybe', because many factors - harmonies, instrumentation, rhythm, articulation, balance -determine how much that g# in the scale is going to hurt against the g in the Em chord. Classical composers have done this kind of thing over and over again, calling that g# a change note, a passing note, or just something they wrote to cut through. Nothing but variation in music that is essentially built on the ordinary major and minor scales. In the last century or so composers of both classical and jazz music started to use other scales to break away from tradition. But they did it systematically, not as incidents in music built on tradional chords.

If the rest of a piece of music is based on ordinary major or minor scales, the guys who say that all modal scales can be covered within the major and minor scales- only not starting from the tonic - have a very strong argument. There is nothing special about using modal scales that way.

Those who claim that they are creating a modal atmosphere we should only believe if they also bring the rest of their piece under the flag of that mode.