I can't work out the key signature :(

[Depth_Charge]

I've noticed a few people mention they're not sure what I'm actually asking them, so I'll start with my question first, then waffle on

Q: Is there a situation in music theory that breaks the "no two same notes in a scale/key signature rule"?

The reason I ask is I'm looking at a song I'm working on with a view to working out the key(s) the song is played in.

When I play along to the recording it sounds like I'm matching pitch. I jam to lots of CD's and can usually pick my mistakes if I'm off half a step so I'm relatively confident I'm playing the piece correctly. Relatively

I'm playing the measure like this:

G ---------------------
D ---------------------
A --55-3-4-6--66-6666
E ---------------------.

The notes used there are C, C#/Db, D, D#/Eb and I'm stumped straight away because I either end up with C C# D Eb, or C Db D Eb...either way the same note is occurring twice in that measure, either C and C#, or D and Db.

So then I looked at the next measure...just for a hint, same fingering, but on the E string, like this:

G ---------------------
D ---------------------
A ---------------------
E --55-3-4-6--66-6666

And the notes there are A, G, G#/Ab and A#/Bb

So these are my available notes for those 2 measures:

A, A#/Bb, C, C#/Db, D, D#/Eb, G, G#/Ab

And I'm thinking that either :
A) the song is breaking a rule somewhere in the first measure, as the "same" note is being used twice regardless of anything beyond that point and;
B) there may be an F being played somewhere that I'm missing, or F is also ommitted from the scale being used, if indeed one is being used

So, again, is there a situation I don't know of that breaks the "no two same notes in a scale/key signature rule"?

Thanks again guys. One of my New Years resolutions is to become a donating member on TB for all the help I've got so far

[JimmyM]

Whoa! Calm down there, buddy! It;s not that big a deal. You can't have two of the same notes in a key sig, but you can have "accidentals," where you can change any note to any other note with the flat, sharp and natural signs. Generally, what you call the note is dependent on the key sig and what makes it easiest to read. It's all situation dependent.

[Bruce Lindfield]

It's very common to have "passing notes" in bass lines - that form strong resolutions, but which are not part of the key!

So - you know where you are aiming to go - just choose the note a semi-tone above or below(by definition not in the key) - that's a passing tone!

They are very common in Jazz or Blues bass lines and also crop up in rock based on Blues.

[Depth_Charge]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Whoa! Calm down there, buddy! It;s not that big a deal.

I'm not deliberately trying to make it a big deal either! I'm just trying to understand and apply what I'm learning about music theory, and I keep getting stuck

Someone recently told me that if I look at some tabs, or play some songs, I should be able to work out the key signature from those resources. . .

I don't understand how to do that when the measure I'm reading or playing is using notes that, according to the theory behind key signatures as I currently understand it, shouldn't occur together, ie C, C#/Db and D.

Thats all.

[KPJ]

Originally Posted by Depth_Charge

I'm not deliberately trying to make it a big deal either! I'm just trying to understand and apply what I'm learning about music theory, and I keep getting stuck

Someone recently told me that if I look at some tabs, or play some songs, I should be able to work out the key signature from those resources. . .

I don't understand how to do that when the measure I'm reading or playing is using notes that, according to the theory behind key signatures as I currently understand it, shouldn't occur together, ie C, C#/Db and D.

Thats all.

As Bruce mentioned passing tones are common in bass lines. C, C# and D can and do occur in many songs. The key signature does not determine "if" a note can be played or not, it merely defines how the note is called. (In your example, if the line were in G: the notes would be C, Db and D,; in A: C, C# and D.)

Looking at tabs will not help you at all with determining a key signature, it merely shows you an interpretation of where the notes can be played on the fingerboard. Looking at standard notation will give you the key signature, as that is one of the pieces of information that is provided.

Understanding basic theory and being able to identify which chords are being played and how they relate to each other will go a lot further to helping you determine a song's key. The bassline does not always tip you off. If you do not have a teacher or have not taken any lessons, now might be a good time to take a few to help you get a better understanding. If you are taking lessons, then there is some disconnect between what your teacher is teaching and how you are comprehending it.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by KPJ

Looking at tabs will not help you at all with determining a key signature....

Yup - Tabs can be more of a distraction in this respect and if you are looking at music theory then you really need to ditch the Tabs as soon as possible and start looking at Sheet Music!!

The key is immediately apparent from sheet music - although as KPJ mentions, there are also ways to determine the key from an analysis of the chords being used at any point.

[Depth_Charge]

Originally Posted by KPJ

As Bruce mentioned passing tones are common in bass lines. C, C# and D can and do occur in many songs. The key signature does not determine "if" a note can be played or not, it merely defines how the note is called. (In your example, if the line were in G: the notes would be C, Db and D,; in A: C, C# and D.)

Looking at tabs will not help you at all with determining a key signature, it merely shows you an interpretation of where the notes can be played on the fingerboard. Looking at standard notation will give you the key signature, as that is one of the pieces of information that is provided.

Understanding basic theory and being able to identify which chords are being played and how they relate to each other will go a lot further to helping you determine a song's key. The bassline does not always tip you off.

Cheers, thats awesome, thanks. I'll redirect my own learning away from keys and onto your other suggestions.

Being a bassist only gives me tunnel vision so to speak, I find I tend to slip into the thinking that the bassline IS the song

Originally Posted by KPJ

If you do not have a teacher or have not taken any lessons, now might be a good time to take a few to help you get a better understanding. If you are taking lessons, then there is some disconnect between what your teacher is teaching and how you are comprehending it.

No teacher at the moment, just one book on bass (Bass for Beginners by Sharon Ray), a few web resources, you top (ladies and) gentlemen on TB and a mountain of tabs and some sweat

I'm auditioning for an original band next week and was anxious that I needed to know about keys in case they said something like "this one is in the key of E" and just gave me a progression. I have learned both the songs they emailed me by ear already though, I guess thats as good a start as I'm gonna get without some formal lessons.

Thanks again!!

[KPJ]

Learning as much as you can about music is never a bad idea if you are a musician. With that being said, a lot of people have quite a bit of success without knowing much theory at all.

If you have learned the songs for the audition already, don't sweat it. Don't be surprised if some of the players in the band don't have any idea what key the song they are playing is in. It happens all the time. Of course, if you are able to determine the key, you can make the song sound that much better.

[Depth_Charge]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

Yup - Tabs can be more of a distraction in this respect and if you are looking at music theory then you really need to ditch the Tabs as soon as possible and start looking at Sheet Music!!

When just learning to play songs, I've always found using tabs a bit of a challenge in themselves...sure, you get the right notes most of the time, but not the rythms or nuances of a song.
But I understand and respect your point, it's good advice and I will heed it best I can

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

The key is immediately apparent from sheet music - although as KPJ mentions, there are also ways to determine the key from an analysis of the chords being used at any point.

In all my posts about keys recently, I've been trying to determine keys of a song from the recording only, and was hoping to "reverse engineer" the key(s) the song is in from the notes I played when learning it by ear.

But I guess it just don't work that way...in fact I'm starting to suspect the only reason musicians have any theory and "rules" is merely to break them again

Anyway, thanks again, all input appreciated!

[Bruce Lindfield]

If you are trying to 'reverse engineer' - then really what you need to do, is work out what chords are being played - the quality of the chords and their function in the sequence.

So - is it major/minor - dominant seventh etc. etc.

Each major key has only one V7 primary dominant chord - so if you spot this - then you can tell you have the 5th of the scale being played and can work back to the I and imply a key at that point!

[Phil Smith]

Originally Posted by Depth_Charge

In all my posts about keys recently, I've been trying to determine keys of a song from the recording only, and was hoping to "reverse engineer" the key(s) the song is in from the notes I played when learning it by ear.

But I guess it just don't work that way...in fact I'm starting to suspect the only reason musicians have any theory and "rules" is merely to break them again

Anyway, thanks again, all input appreciated!

There's always exceptions to the rules.

Bruce, has given you good advice, you need to listen for chord movement. If you're really serious about this you'll learn some keyboard and then you play and hear the full chord.

Key signatures usually come into play when you are reading music though someone will say Blues in the key of "C" you may in fact be playing notes other than those found in the key of "C". What's really meant is that the chordal movement is using C as a starting point i.e. first chord C or C7 or Cmin7.

[Bassist4Life]

I agree with what everyone is saying about standard notation making things more obvious.

To find out what the key is in standard notation, you look at the "key signature". It might be a major key or the relative minor. It makes things so much easier.

In standard notation you'll be able to see which notes are accidentals (sharps, flats, or naturals NOT in the key signature). Then, you will be able to see what purpose those notes serve. They could be chromatic passing tones, upper/lower neighboring tones, notes that belong to chords substitutions (secondary dominant for example), or notes that belong to another key due to a moduation.

I find Jazz theory the most difficult because it seems as if you're modulating (changing keys) every measure or two! You have to follow the chord symbols closely and understand how that chord works with the other chords (functional harmony).

Don't try to rush all of this learning. It will come. Some of us went to college to learn all of this. I spent 6 years in college studying music/education and I'm still learning. Don't give up.

Joe

PS. As a bassist; 9 times out of 10, the last note you play in a song is the same as the key (of course you'll have to figure out if it's major or minor).

[Depth_Charge]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

If you are trying to 'reverse engineer' - then real what you need to do, is work out what chords are being played - the quality of the chords and their function in the sequence.

So - is it major/minor - dominant seventh etc. etc.

Each major key has only one V7 primary dominant chord - so if you spot this - then you can tell you have the 5th of the scale being played and can work back to the I and imply a key at that point!

Guess I'll be pulling out the chapters on chords soon, I'm curious what keys the 10 or songs I've written are in

Originally Posted by Phil Smith

There's always exceptions to the rules.

Bruce, has given you good advice, you need to listen for chord movement. If you're really serious about this you'll learn some keyboard and then you play and hear the full chord.

Key signatures usually come into play when you are reading music though someone will say Blues in the key of "C" you may in fact be playing notes other than those found in the key of "C". What's really meant is that the chordal movement is using C as a starting point i.e. first chord C or C7 or Cmin7.

Thanks for that info it's all useful. There is a keyboard in the house as of a week before Xmas so I'll probably take that advice when I can get some time

[JimmyM]

Theory is not "rules," but merely guidelines. There is nothing that says that if a song is in a particular key that only the notes in that key's major scale are allowed to be played.

I agree with Bruce's comments about trying to reverse engineer tabs, as that's what you're doing. If you ditch the tabs and learn to read music and learn some theory through reading music, it will all be explained to you. But trying to learn theory by reverse engineering tabs is incredibly difficult.

[Depth_Charge]

Originally Posted by Bassist4Life

I agree with what everyone is saying about standard notation making things more obvious.

To find out what the key is in standard notation, you look at the "key signature". It might be a major key or the relative minor. It makes things so much easier.

In standard notation you'll be able to see which notes are accidentals (sharps, flats, or naturals NOT in the key signature). Then, you will be able to see what purpose those notes serve. They could be chromatic passing tones, upper/lower neighboring tones, notes that belong to chords substitutions (secondary dominant for example), or notes that belong to another key due to a moduation.

I find Jazz theory the most difficult because it seems as if you're modulating (changing keys) every measure or two! You have to follow the chord symbols closely and understand how that chord works with the other chords (functional harmony).

Don't try to rush all of this learning. It will come. Some of us went to college to learn all of this. I spent 6 years in college studying music/education and I'm still learning. Don't give up.

Joe

PS. As a bassist; 9 times out of 10, the last note you play in a song is the same as the key (of course you'll have to figure out if it's major or minor).

Thanks for the advice and encouragement. I have no intention of giving up, but I do intend to back my self learning off a lot until I start my lessons late Jan.

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Theory is not "rules," but merely guidelines. There is nothing that says that if a song is in a particular key that only the notes in that key's major scale are allowed to be played.

I agree with Bruce's comments about trying to reverse engineer tabs, as that's what you're doing. If you ditch the tabs and learn to read music and learn some theory through reading music, it will all be explained to you. But trying to learn theory by reverse engineering tabs is incredibly difficult.

I was just trying to find the keys in a song by tab, not learn ALL music theory by tab...but your point is taken nonetheless and I appreciate you taking the time to make it.

Thanks guys!

[JimmyM]

Hey, one thing I should add is that when you're trying to figure out the key of a song, you need to look at the song as a whole and not just try to figure it out by a couple bars. I don't know if that's what you're doing, but it bears mentioning.

[Depth_Charge]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Hey, one thing I should add is that when you're trying to figure out the key of a song, you need to look at the song as a whole and not just try to figure it out by a couple bars. I don't know if that's what you're doing, but it bears mentioning.

Yes, I was trying to do that.

But doing that opened more questions I didn't choose to ask, like "if measure 8 and measure 9 share diatonic** notes common to 2 keys, then how do I spot the key change?"

In hindsight I think my primary mistake was trying to resolve the key(s) by the bassline alone and not by considering what the guitars were doing in the song. I'll start listening to the song with a view to resolving the chords and progression and see if I can get a signature that way, but for a day or so I'm gonna give this theory a rest and just play me some bass

** - I hope thats the correct use of the term "diatonic" in this context

[Depth_Charge]

Originally Posted by Phil Smith

There's always exceptions to the rules.

Bruce, has given you good advice, you need to listen for chord movement. If you're really serious about this you'll learn some keyboard and then you play and hear the full chord.

And I also wanted to say thanks for the advice to use a keyboard.

I sat down with my wife's keyboard for the first time and it has a mode called "fingered" that will only sound a chord if I press the right notes and it's got an LCD display with all sorts of helpful information too! Nothing like that on my bass darnit

If I press C and E together, nothing happens, but then if I press the G it plays a C chord, and if I keep those down and press A next to G, it changes to an Am7, which you guys probably already expected would happen

Now...to find out what Am7 means...I know it means A minor 7th...but thats it

[JimmyM]

The idea to just play bass is a good thing for now. You're pushing yourself too hard to learn too much theory all at once. Slow down a little and learn the simple concepts of reading music first. You're too much into the advanced concepts before you truly understand the building blocks behind them.

[Bassist4Life]

I agree with JimmyM; however, if you have an intense passion to learn theory, then do it. But if you're going to do it, then do it from the ground up. http://www.musictheory.net is a great resource. You can get a lot of your basics there. Master those lessons before moving on.

I understand your desire to learn the theory of the music you're playing. I was one of those people in college. I loved music theory/history/composition class! I would spend hours at a local cafe doing score analysis with my best friend while drinking way too much coffee.

Theory by itself won't make you a better player, but it will give you the understanding to make connections that may take you further in your musicianship.

Joe