I-ii-iii-IV-V-VI-Vii

Mahumadi · #1 12-02-2009, 08:38 AM

In this numbering system, not sure the name..? The 2 and 3 are minor while the 7 is diminished. Does that mean in a chord progression the ii and iii chords are to be played as minor? and the Vii a diminished chord?

Jim Campbell · #2 12-02-2009, 08:44 AM

major 7
minor 7
minor 7
major 7
dominant 7
minor 7
half diminished.....b3 b5 b7

Mahumadi · #3 12-02-2009, 09:03 AM

Hmm.. is the 7 in your post referring to a 7th chord?

JTE · #4 12-02-2009, 09:07 AM

Build the scale and harmonize it and then analyze the chords.

Write a scale out....
C D E F G A B C

Then do it again, and stack thirds on top...
E F G A B C D
C D E F G A B

Repeat again to get the triads...
G A B C D E F
E F G A B C D
C D E F G A B

And one more time for the 7th chords...
B C D E F G A
G A B C D E F
E F G A B C D
C D E F G A B

Then when you analyze the chords you'll find that it's (triad and then 7th chord):

One is major or Maj7
Two is minor or min7
Three is minor or min7
Four is major or Maj7
Five is major (triad) or Dom7
Six is minor or min7
Seven is diminished (triad) or min7 b5 (a/k/a half diminished, not a diminished chord which would have a double flatted 7)

Do this exercise for yourself, and do the analysis by looking at the intervals in the chords, as well as the relationships to the root OF EACH CHORD. For example, a major 7 is 1, 3, 5, 7 while a dominant 7 is 1, 3 5, b7. The Maj7 is a major third (e.g. C to E), a minor third (E to G), and a major third (G to B). A dominant 7 is a major third (C to E), a minor third (E to G), and a MINOR third (G to Bb).

I can not emphasize enough the utility of writing this stuff out for yourself instead of just reading it! Learn to think this stuff through instead of just memorizing that it's I ii iii IV V vi viib5.

John

AlexD · #5 12-02-2009, 09:08 AM

Make sure not to capitalize numerals that aren't major - example:
I - ii - iii - IV - V - vi - vii°.

This means your I, IV, and V chords are played as a major triad (1 3 5) - your ii, iii, and vi chords are played as a minor triad (1 ♭3 5), and your vii chord is played as a diminished triad. (1 ♭3 ♭5).

If you throw sevenths into the mix, you get a major seventh chord on I and IV (1 3 5 7), a minor seventh chord on ii, iii, and vi (1 ♭3 5 ♭7), a dominant seventh chord on V (1 3 5 ♭7) and a half-diminished chord on vii (1 ♭3 ♭5 ♭7).

That make sense?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahumadi

In this numbering system, not sure the name..? The 2 and 3 are minor while the 7 is diminished. Does that mean in a chord progression the ii and iii chords are to be played as minor? and the Vii a diminished chord?

Jim Campbell · #6 12-02-2009, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahumadi

Hmm.. is the 7 in your post referring to a 7th chord?

jte sums it up better.....i would add that the diminished is built from half whole/whole half step scales and contains a bb7.......

Mahumadi · #7 12-02-2009, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexD

Make sure not to capitalize numerals that aren't major - example:
I - ii - iii - IV - V - vi - vii°.

This means your I, IV, and V chords are played as a major triad (1 3 5) - your ii, iii, and vi chords are played as a minor triad (1 ♭3 5), and your vii chord is played as a diminished triad. (1 ♭3 ♭5).

If you throw sevenths into the mix, you get a major seventh chord on I and IV (1 3 5 7), a minor seventh chord on ii, iii, and vi (1 ♭3 5 ♭7), a dominant seventh chord on V (1 3 5 ♭7) and a half-diminished chord on vii (1 ♭3 ♭5 ♭7).

That make sense?

Yup, makes sense, and i didnt know the vi was a minor as well, great info thanks!

Thanks as well JTE, good stuff, it all makes sense now.

jarrhead · #8 12-02-2009, 09:19 AM

subscribed to copy this info when I get home for study.

AlexD · #9 12-02-2009, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Campbell

jte sums it up better.....i would add that the diminished is built from half whole/whole half step scales and contains a bb7.......

A fully diminished 7th contains a ♭♭7, but that doesn't occur naturally in an ionian mode (major scale). The half diminished is built with a ♭7 and does occur naturally on the vii in ionian (major) and the ii in aeolian (natural minor).

MalcolmAmos · #10 12-02-2009, 09:45 AM

As mentioned - I, ii, iii, IV V, vi Viidim for the chords in a Major key
Use this i, iidim, III, iv, v, VI VII for the chords in a natural minor key.

Mahumadi · #11 12-02-2009, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

As mentioned - I, ii, iii, IV V, vi Viidim for the chords in a Major key
Use this i, iidim, III, iv, v, VI VII for the chords in a natural minor key.

Ah, I never thought about a minor key, great info, thanks!!!

Mahumadi · #12 12-02-2009, 10:24 AM

Would that iidim be a half-diminished?

AlexD · #13 12-02-2009, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahumadi

Would that iidim be a half-diminished?

As a seventh chord, yes.

The minor (aeolian) roman numerals are exactly the same as the major (ionian) ones, it's just as if you started on the vi of the major scale. So where as vi in major is i in minor, vii° in major is ii in minor, I in major is III in minor... make sense?

Mahumadi · #14 12-02-2009, 11:38 AM

Yes, that helps a lot I understand. So, in theory, pun intended, you use the same chord spellings? so it would be like this:

i minor 1-3b-5 or minor7 1-3b-5-7b
iidim diminished 1-3b-5b or min7(b5) 1-3b-5b-7b
III Major 1-3-5 or Major7 1-3-5-7
iv Minor 1-3b-5 or min7 1-3b-5-7b
v Minor 1-3b-5 or min7 1-3b-5-7b
VI Major 1-3-5 or major7 1-3-5-7
VII Major 1-3-5 or Dom7 1-3-5-7b

MalcolmAmos · #15 12-02-2009, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahumadi

Yes, that helps a lot I understand. So, in theory, pun intended, you use the same chord spellings? so it would be like this:

i minor 1-3b-5 or minor7 1-3b-5-7b
iidim diminished 1-3b-5b or min7(b5) 1-3b-5b-7b
III Major 1-3-5 or Major7 1-3-5-7
iv Minor 1-3b-5 or min7 1-3b-5-7b
v Minor 1-3b-5 or min7 1-3b-5-7b
VI Major 1-3-5 or major7 1-3-5-7
VII Major 1-3-5 or Dom7 1-3-5-7b

Almost. I'm questioning the 1-b3-5-b7 as a tonic minor. My point the tonic seventh is usually not a b7, just a 7 - like a mMaj7 http://www.looknohands.com/chordhous.../index_rb.html

C mmaj7
a.k.a.: Cmin/maj7, CmM7, Cm(addM7), Cm(+7), C-(M7)
intervals: 1,b3,5,7
half-steps: 3-4-4
notes: C,Eb,G,B

But I'm splitting hairs.......

AlexD · #16 12-02-2009, 01:36 PM

I'm not sure how you're questioning it - at the risk of sounding arrogant, that's what it is.

vi in the ionian (major) mode is a minor seventh chord (1 ♭3 5 ♭7). The sixth scale degree (vi) of the ionian mode is the first scale degree of the aeolian (natural minor) mode. Therefore, the seventh chord that corresponds with the tonic of the aeolian mode is a minor seventh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Almost. I'm questioning the 1-b3-5-b7 as a tonic minor. http://www.looknohands.com/chordhous.../index_rb.html

MalcolmAmos · #17 12-02-2009, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexD

I'm not sure how you're questioning it - at the risk of sounding arrogant, that's what it is.

Let's play nice.

Quoting from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh_chord

Quote:

Major and minor seventh chords
Main articles: Major seventh chord and Minor seventh chord
While the dominant seventh chord is typically built on the fifth (or dominant) degree of a major scale, the minor seventh chord is built on the second, third, or sixth degree. A minor seventh chord contains the same notes as an added sixth chord (see below under "Sixth chords") - for example, C-E♭-G-B♭ can function as both a C minor seventh and an E flat added sixth (Id chord).

Major seventh chords are usually constructed on the first or fourth degree of a scale, (in C or G major: C-E-G-B). Due to the major seventh interval between the root and seventh (C-B, an inverted minor second), this chord can sometimes sound dissonant, depending on the voicing used. For example, Bacharach and David's Raindrops Keep Fallin' on My Head open with a major chord followed by a major seventh in the next measure.

Major seventh chords are usually constructed on the first or fourth degree of a scale. My point being the tonic usually would be shown as a Maj7 or mMaj7.

JTE · #18 12-02-2009, 02:37 PM

Not if you're using the harmonized natural minor scale (which is also the Aeolian mode). The harmonized chord built from the first note of a natural minor is indeed a min7.

The Wiki article you quote only shows major scales. To get the one as mMaj7, you need the Harmonic Minor. A Harmonic Minor is A B C D E F G# A. Stack the thirds (like I said in my first post, work through this yourself), and you'll get that minor chord with a major 7. But if you harmonize the A natural minor (A B C D E F G A) you get the minor 7.

John

AlexD · #19 12-02-2009, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Let's play nice.

Major seventh chords are usually constructed on the first or fourth degree of a scale. My point being the tonic usually would be shown as a Maj7 or mMaj7.

On the first or fourth degree of a major scale, yes. The chord that is generally built on the tonic of a aeolian (minor) scale is a min7. Just like the chord built on the tonic locrian is a half-dim7, the chord built on the tonic of mixolydian is a dom7, etc.

Richard Lindsey · #20 12-02-2009, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Let's play nice.

Quoting from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh_chord

Major seventh chords are usually constructed on the first or fourth degree of a scale. My point being the tonic usually would be shown as a Maj7 or mMaj7.

As JTE points out, your examples specifically are noted to apply to major scales and therefore are not automatically adaptable to minor scales.

It's true, however, that a minor i, especially in jazz, may be expressed as a minor maj7, or for that matter as a m6. But it's not true that it can't occur as a m7.