I keep getting confused about this simple theory...

[Wes]

Hey, I have recently started to learn some theory with a teacher. I'm quite liking theory because it's opening up my bass so much and I'm generally enjoying it. However, I am getting confused with some basic terminology.

I am getting confused with keys and scales. I understand that if I play if I play a major scale on a C note of the bass; then I am playing a C major scale. So this means I'm playing a in the key of C?

But what if I then play the same major scale on the D note? Does this mean I'm playing a D major scale in the key of D?

I don't understand the way things relate to the key. Can anyone help explain? I'm getting awfully confused by something that should be so simple.

[Foamy]

Sorry Wes, your question is not totally clear.
If you play the C major scale, you are playing in the key of C (C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C), yes. Now, if you MOVE your hand up a whole step (2 frets), and play the exact same fingering, then your notes would be D-E-F#-G-A-B-C#-D. That would be the D major scale, and be in the key of D. However, if you just start (and end) the C major scale on the D, your notes would be D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D. That would be D Dorian. Play this scale, and you're playing in D, no longer C.
In fact, take a look at this page:
http://www.zentao.com/guitar/modes/
It talks exactly about the question you ask. It explains it better than I can here.

[tZer]

When you say, "But what if I then play the same major scale on the D note?" - Technically you are playing in the Dorian mode.

The modes represent scales (interval paterns) that begin on each step of a scale.

There is a simple [EDIT: (Thanks Lazylion)]mnemonic that helps you remember the order of these mode names:

In Dark Places Lie Many Angry Lions

C: Ionian = (C Major)
D: Dorian = (Same notes as C Major, but starting on D)
E: Phrygian = (Same notes as C Maj. But starting on E)
F: Lydian = (are ya seeing the pattern? :-) )
G: Mixolydian
A: Aeolian
B: Locrian
C: Ionian = (C Major)

So to answer your question, "Does this mean I'm playing a D major scale in the key of D?" - the answer is no.

You are playing a D-Dorian scale - which has the key signature of C Major (no sharps or flats).

The scale sounds interesting because of the intervals but you are still in C Major.

More info. Prabably way too much, but if I am anything, I am verbose.

1 = half step,
2 = whole step (2 half steps)

C Major (Ionian): C (2) D (2) E (1) F (2) G (2) A (2) B (1) C

Ionian = 2212221
Dorian = 2122212
Phrygian = 1222122
Lydian = 2221221
Mixolydian = 2212212
Aeolian = 2122122
Locrian = 1221222

If you look closely, you realize that when moving down through each mode you chop the first interval off the front and move it to the end to create the next mode's interval pattern.

Ionian to Dorian:
Ionian: 2212221
chop off the first interval ( [2]212221 ) and move it to the end ( 212221[2] ) to get the Dorian mode interval pattern.

Way too complicated for "on the fly" playing - but sometimes seeing the guts of something helps you understand why it works.

And finally - my online modes thing that has very little to do with traditional or even correct theory, but uses this interval relationship to offer you ideas of a way to apply the modes.

http://www.mydigitalinnerchild.com/_...rator_v04.html

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by Wes

Hey, I have recently started to learn some theory with a teacher. I'm quite liking theory because it's opening up my bass so much and I'm generally enjoying it. However, I am getting confused with some basic terminology.

I am getting confused with keys and scales. I understand that if I play if I play a major scale on a C note of the bass; then I am playing a C major scale. So this means I'm playing a in the key of C?

But what if I then play the same major scale on the D note? Does this mean I'm playing a D major scale in the key of D?

I don't understand the way things relate to the key. Can anyone help explain? I'm getting awfully confused by something that should be so simple.

The key tells you what notes need accidentals to create a major or minor scale. To understand this you need to learn how major and minor scales are constructed. There is a formula of whole-steps and half-steps. The C major scale fits the formula without any modification. But to create a G major scale you need to change F to F# to make the notes fit the formula. So key of G has one sharp. Now on bass you learn to play a C major scale and it is all the natural notes. Now to play a G major scale on the bass you need to change that F to F# or it won't sound right. So to your original post take a C note play and sing a C major scale, get the sound in your ear. Make sure you can sing the major scale in numbers 1,2,3...etc or do,re,mi..etc. Okay now hit your D note and sing a D major scale. Can you hear two of the notes are different from the C major scale? Take the same fingering pattern you used to play the C major scale, and move it up two frets to play a D major scale. Look at the notes you play for the D major scale, can you see the two different notes? Here look at the two scales.

C major C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C
D major D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D.

A major scale made of W, W, 1/2, W, W, W, 1/2. (W = whole step, 1/2 = half step)

Play your C major scale and look for the two half steps. E and F then B and C. Now to get that same major scale pattern D if you play C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C the half-steps are in the wrong places. You need to sharp the F and C to make the pattern/formula work. So key of D has two sharps F# and C#.

That explains is in a couple ways. Just look at what your are doing and try to see where things change. Play C major scale, then G major scale, and next D major, and last A major. Play, sing, and write out those major scales, you will see a pattern going on. Now you should be able to create any major scale.

[tZer]

Originally Posted by DocBop

Play your C major scale and look for the two half steps. E and F then B and C. Now to get that same major scale pattern D if you play C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C the half-steps are in the wrong places. You need to sharp the F and C to make the pattern/formula work. So key of D has two sharps F# and C#.

Minor edit - no pun intended!

[Lazylion]

Originally Posted by tZer

There is a simple pneumonic that helps you remember the order...

LOL tZer, I think you meant mnemonic! Don't want to get the poor lad coughing, now do we!

[tZer]

LOL!!! yes, indeedy! That is exactly what I meant!

[AlphaMale]

Dude, Listen to me.
If you play notes on the C Major scale, you are playing in the key of C.

[Foamy]

Originally Posted by AlphaMale

Dude, Listen to me.
If you play notes on the C Major scale, you are playing in the key of C.

Sort of, as I understand it.

The actual notes are the same, but the tonal center is now a D as opposed to a C.

One would use this "mode" to solo over a Dm chord - or over a C chord. The difference is the tonal center of the mode which is a D.
So, if someone asks 'What scale might sound good over a Dm?' I would answer D Dorian (as opposed to C Major/Ionian).

There are endless web sites that explain this stuff though.

[tZer]

Originally Posted by Enchanter_Tim

Sort of, as I understand it.

The actual notes are the same, but the tonal center is now a D as opposed to a C.

One would use this "mode" to solo over a Dm chord - or over a C chord. The difference is the tonal center of the mode which is a D.
So, if someone asks 'What scale might sound good over a Dm?' I would answer D Dorian (as opposed to C Major/Ionian).

There are endless web sites that explain this stuff though.

This is a never-ending topic of discussion here.

In soloing and improvising, as many will say, there are no wrong notes - so if asked, "What scale might sound good over a Dm?" - Hell, a chormatic scale starting on Bb might - as long as you phrase it well and emphasize tones and beats in a way that make sense within the context of the song.

Another way to look at it - but not one I would necessarily recommend for "on the fly" thinking is that Dm (Aeolian) has 6 other modes that share the same key signature.

For me, each mode's intervals ellicit a particular feel - sad, happy, mysterious, exotic, etc... These feels are created by where the whole and half steps occur in each mode's scale.

So - one way I have thought of applying modes in regards to "what to play over Dm?" is by choosing a chord tone of Dm (D, F, A, Bb) - and working that tone's mode (intervals) making sure to emphasize strong tones at stong times.

So - using Dm - you could start an improv on F and use the Ionian mode (F major) to generate a very "happy" sounding improv. Are the notes different from Dm? Nope. Same notes in both scales - but using a major interval pattern will create a certain flavor.

And many here will say "DON'T THINK ABOUT IT THAT WAY!" and even I don't think about it that way when I am playing. I listen to what I am doing and think very little about modes, key signatures, etc... "blue" notes are your friend if you don't freak out about 'em and think of them as "mistakes".

But is you are sitting down and trying things, modes can help you experiment with ideas by providing you some parameters within which to experiment.

There are no bad notes. There are bad phrases, poor rhythmic interps, or just plain uneventful lines - but the notes are all good!

[AlphaMale]

=\

[tZer]

Originally Posted by AlphaMale

Yeah Well I don't know about modes =\ But I would say D minor. D-minor chord fits perfectly into the minor scale in the D key
It also fits into the C major though

See - technically, I don't think you are quite on base (no pun) - Dm has a Bb in the key sig. and C Maj is Bb-free.

BUT!!!!! There are no bad notes and that Bb could easily sound like a Dominant 7 when used within the context of C maj. which is a mighty fine sound (Dom 7 or C7) - so... I take that back - not really, but yeah.

The relative minor for C Maj. is A min. - So both of those scale share a common key signature (no sharps or flats).

Ok - it's a scary, scary day when tZer is the voice of music theory in a thread - someone better smack me down quick before I get a big head!

LOL


[EDIT: AlphaMale - looks like I beat you to the punch! If you would like me to retract this, I would be more than happy to.]

[K9Jay79]

I started playing bass and learning about music theory for the past 3 months... and I ACTUALLY understand this mess! I don't know if I should be happy or scared. =/
What I really think is funny is that Wes is probably going, "what in the heck are they talking about... I don't feel this is about me anymore." lol

[Foamy]

That's why I did not go into so much detail - partly because I understand only so much at this point. Life and music is a never-ending journey of learning.
Also, many others have created many web pages and can explain it better, or differently where it may make more sense.

[Wes]

Ah I think I understand it a bit more now. Thank you.

I think I just need to read about the basics in a series of articles. Can anyone suggest a good place?

[Foamy]

Originally Posted by Wes

Ah I think I understand it a bit more now. Thank you.

I think I just need to read about the basics in a series of articles. can anyone suggest a good place?

I did already.
Search in Yahoo! for scales, modes, dorian, and you'll come up with and endless supply of things to read.

[manbass]

Originally Posted by Wes

Ah I think I understand it a bit more now. Thank you.

I think I just need to read about the basics in a series of articles. Can anyone suggest a good place?

Wes...this exact question is answered in Jeff Schmidts Podcast #4 and #6 (counterpoint by Ariane Cap) with a ton of useful Bass audio examples. It will heavily reinforce and verify what tzer and enchanter tim posted in this thread, as well as others.

Go to itunes podcast section and search on "beautiful bass", its free and....you will dig it.( I did )

[fcleff]

While tZer, Docbop, and enchanter tim have already said this in so many words, I will say it again in a few.

You need to understand the whole-step/half-step relationship that makes a scale major/ionian.

w-w-h-w-w-w-h

A mnemonic for this is: We were happy when we were home.

This is what I understood you to be asking in the original post.

[AlphaMale]

Originally Posted by tZer

See - technically, I don't think you are quite on base (no pun) - Dm has a Bb in the key sig. and C Maj is Bb-free.

BUT!!!!! There are no bad notes and that Bb could easily sound like a Dominant 7 when used within the context of C maj. which is a mighty fine sound (Dom 7 or C7) - so... I take that back - not really, but yeah.

The relative minor for C Maj. is A min. - So both of those scale share a common key signature (no sharps or flats).

Ok - it's a scary, scary day when tZer is the voice of music theory in a thread - someone better smack me down quick before I get a big head!

LOL


[EDIT: AlphaMale - looks like I beat you to the punch! If you would like me to retract this, I would be more than happy to.]

Nah it's fine I don't mind being wron as long as someone could learn from it.