I learn all this stuff about the pentatonic scale...

[flareaga]

And I don't even know when to actually use it...

A lot the theory I learn I can never implement, simply because I have to resort to using Youtube instructions or confusing internet diagrams, that explain how, but now why or when. That's where talk bass comes in


I know that a major pentatonic is made from a major scale, but no 4th or 7th, right?

And a minor pentatonic is from the natural minor scale, taking out the 4th and the 7th...right?

So when the hell do I use it?

[JimmyM]

that's up to you to figure out through decades of trial and error just like the rest of us

pentatonic scales are merely some basic reference points that you don't necessarily apply to your music, but they give you a few good notes to choose from that are pretty sure-fire to work in most situations. but the problem with applying them to the music is that there are plenty of other notes you can choose from as well that aren't part of the scale, so you don't want to leave them out.

but that takes a while longer to digest, so you always start with pentatonic scales just to show beginners where the sure-fire notes are. then as you get more experience, you'll want to work in other notes as well. but we can't tell you how to use the notes...you have to figure that out on your own.

[flareaga]

Okay, well I've figured this much out.

Over a I IV V progression, I find a minor pentatonic works very well.

And I have no idea why. It is a blues form...and minor pentatonic is close to a blues scale...

right?

[timbledum]

Great for non-thinking fills and runs (and also crappy solos), but you gotta have an ear for it as well. I'm guessing players often have an arsenal of licks and fills at the ready which are basically comprised of primarily the notes from those two scales, however when doing a little lick from one note to another its handy to know what basic notes will always, most of the time, probably sound good. It does require you to know what type of chords are being played.

For example in a major key you got three major chords. I IV V right? Lets say in the key of C, we got C F and G. They're all major so what notes do I play on top of them? Major scale? No! Because the fourth in the IV chord position is actually a sharp, while the 7th in the V chord position is flat. So you can't play a major scale on F because that would have a Bb, while because we're in the key of C its just a B. Likewise a major scale on G would have an F#, but instead it only has an F. Taking both of these notes out, the 4th and the 7th, gives you a cut down scale that gives you the safe bet notes for pretty much any major chord.

Likewise for minor chords. :P

[flareaga]

Originally Posted by timbledum

Great for non-thinking fills and runs (and also crappy solos), but you gotta have an ear for it as well. I'm guessing players often have an arsenal of licks and fills at the ready which are basically comprised of primarily the notes from those two scales, however when doing a little lick from one note to another its handy to know what basic notes will always, most of the time, probably sound good. It does require you to know what type of chords are being played.

For example in a major key you got three major chords. I IV V right? Lets say in the key of C, we got C F and G. They're all major so what notes do I play on top of them? Major scale? No! Because the fourth in the IV chord position is actually a sharp, while the 7th in the V chord position is flat. So you can't play a major scale on F because that would have a Bb, while because we're in the key of C its just a B. Likewise a major scale on G would have an F#, but instead it only has an F. Taking both of these notes out, the 4th and the 7th, gives you a cut down scale that gives you the safe bet notes for pretty much any major chord.

Likewise for minor chords. :P

Ok, you see, with some thinking I could have figured that out. Theory: Making me take hard looks at simple solutions for too long. Thanks a bunch!

[MalcolmAmos]

When do we use pentatonic scales? When we get lost or can not pick up the chord changes. No idea what chord the rest of the guys are using - grab the tonic pentatonic. Lay your grove from that.

Chord tones first -- R nothing, R-5, R-3-5-3, R-b3-5-b7, whatever and then when you want something else look to pentatonic scale notes - in any order you like. Should mention don't forget chord tones work going up and coming back down - 8-7-6-5.

Sing the song and let your fingers find the melody - as a melody will rely heavily upon the chord tones a pentatonic will give you three chord tones and two safe passing notes. Kinda makes since to think pentatonic if you are hunting for melody.

All kinds of things you can do with pentatonic scales. Plus its a good warm up exercise.

BTW That blues scale is the minor pentatonic with the blue note added, i.e. add a #4 or b5 (same thing which ever one) and you have the blues scale. Why does it work? Don't bother your self with why, just be glad it does and use it.

Here is a paper on what could be done with pentatonic. It's written for 6 string, just omit the top two strings in the charts. http://www.ibreathemusic.com/article/90

Have fun.

[MonetBass]

Originally Posted by timbledum

For example in a major key you got three major chords. I IV V right? Lets say in the key of C, we got C F and G. They're all major so what notes do I play on top of them? Major scale? No! Because the fourth in the IV chord position is actually a sharp...

What? Let's spell this out, shall we? In C, the IV would be F-A-C. The fourth of that chord is B. How is that sharp?

Originally Posted by timbledum

...while the 7th in the V chord position is flat.

Again: In C, the V7 is G-B-D-F. How is F flat?

Now if you play I7 (C-E-G-Bb) or IV7 (F-A-C-Eb), then that's a different story. But you could make those notes work in that context.

My point is that both B and F are diatonic to the key of C, so you most certain play a C major scale under all of the chords (ii, iii, vi, etc.) and it would sound fine, although not very interesting.

[mounsen]

Originally Posted by MonetBass

What? Let's spell this out, shall we? In C, the IV would be F-A-C. The fourth of that chord is B. How is that sharp?

The 4th of F is A#, no? A is the 3rd.

[Minotauros]

Originally Posted by flareaga

And I don't even know when to actually use it...

...

So when the hell do I use it?

Lead guitarists use it to improvise and/or solo over a rhythm chord progression in a key. The rhythm guitarist may be playing in Am, so the lead/solo guitarist is going to play an Am pentatonic over the chord progression.

I'm admittedly pentatonically-challenged, but I would guess that the same applies to a bass run. The rhythm guitar is playing in Gmaj, for example, and the bass player might play a bass line in Gmaj pentatonic.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong (I don't doubt I am ).

[Rockman]

Originally Posted by mounsen

The 4th of F is A#, no? A is the 3rd.

Sharp is misleading, what should be said is that the 4th of a IV chord is a tritone, which often times can sound out. And no, any kind of A(Ab, A, A#) is a third above F, any kind of B (Bb, B, B#) is a fourth above F. It would be useful if the clarifications were made as to whether people mean perfect, diminished, minor, or augmented, because there is a difference.

[Late Boomer]

Originally Posted by flareaga

So when the hell do I use it?

You're probably already using it more than you realize. For me I find the pentatonic *everywhere* just by using my ears and muscle memory in my hands. I participate in a weekly jam session where guys bring lead sheets and we just dive into the music. This is a challenge, but it's also taught me how to quickly figure out a good "safe" place to be in a tune, especially one I've not heard or played before. The pentatonic scales just fit, and just sound right. Figure out which pentatonic fits the tune, and you've got 5 notes (all up and down the neck, of course) that will make a good solid foundation for both the groove and for harmonizing with the rest of the msuicians.

I've also had the experience where I'll be jamming along with the guys, or exploring a new bit of music at home, and I'll notice that my hand is moving in a familiar pattern. "Hey, there's the pentatonic again," I'll think. Once I see that, then I've got a whole bunch of those 5 scale notes to pick from up and down the neck.

A good solid recognition of the pentatonic scales, and an understanding of passing notes, and you've got a good foundation for much fruitful jamming.

[JTE]

I believe that until you know basic harmony (you know how to figure out the notes in any major, minor, dominant 7, minor 7, major 7, augmented, and diminished chord), the only scale you need to study is the diatonic major. That way you can find the maon notes you need because they're from chord tones. And ou won't make errors like saying the fourth of F is A#.

Now, "knowing" the major scale is a LOT more than being able to play it. Among other things it includes knowing how to harmonize it so you KNOW WHY the I and IV are major 7, WHY the ii, iii. and vi are minor 7, WHY the V is dominant 7, and WHY the vii is a half-idiminished. And understanding how those seven chords relate to each other.

Only after that do any other scales start to be useful.

John

[somedumbguy]

Originally Posted by mounsen

The 4th of F is A#, no? A is the 3rd.

the perfect fourth of F is Bb, not A#.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by flareaga

And I don't even know when to actually use it...

A lot the theory I learn I can never implement, simply because I have to resort to using Youtube instructions or confusing internet diagrams, that explain how, but now why or when. That's where talk bass comes in


I know that a major pentatonic is made from a major scale, but no 4th or 7th, right?

And a minor pentatonic is from the natural minor scale, taking out the 4th and the 7th...right?

So when the hell do I use it?

If you work out how you want to use them and it works, then you're using it well. If other people like what you're playing, you've using it well. If those people pay to hear you do it, you're using it well. If lots of people buy what you doing to listen to it, you're using it well.
Its about application as you see it being done.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by mounsen

The 4th of F is A#, no? A is the 3rd.

Bb, not A#. keep your idioms straight and don't use sharps where you should use flats.

[MonetBass]

Originally Posted by somedumbguy

the perfect fourth of F is Bb, not A#.

Originally Posted by Rockman

Sharp is misleading, what should be said is that the 4th of a IV chord is a tritone...

Which is more correct, seeing as how B natural is diatonic to the key of C major. The tritone occurs between the F and B. You could use the Bb on the I7 (C7) though.

[mambo4]

+1 to learning chords and chord tones before worrying too much about scales.

I use the pentatonic scales mostly as my habitual first choice to connect chord tones for the chords I'm supporting. Also to fill an available space with a quick noodle.
They are both wonderful and lazy, because if you use the pent for the key you're in, you will almost never sound "wrong" notes.

[esoomssab]

Originally Posted by flareaga

And I don't even know when to actually use it...

A lot the theory I learn I can never implement, simply because I have to resort to using Youtube instructions or confusing internet diagrams, that explain how, but now why or when. That's where talk bass comes in


I know that a major pentatonic is made from a major scale, but no 4th or 7th, right?

And a minor pentatonic is from the natural minor scale, taking out the 4th and the 7th...right?

So when the hell do I use it?

To answer your second question, the major and minor pentatonic scales are related in the same way the major and natural minor scales are related.

The minor scale is using the same notes as the major scale only a minor third down. Or you can look at it as a C major scale starting on the sixth scale degree (A).

C Major scale: CDEFGABC
A Minor scale: ABCDEFGA

The pentatonics work in the same way:

C Major pentatonic scale: CDE GA C (no 4 and 7)
A Minor pentatonic scale: A CDE GA (no 2 and 6)

They are related to each other, and the same notes (F and B) stay removed.

C Major pentatonic scale: CDE GA C
C Minor pentatonic scale: C EbFG BbC

As you can see, the C minor pentatonic scale is the C minor scale with the second and sixth scale degrees removed.

The first example (the C major and A minor) are examples of relative scales. They use the same notes. The last example (C Major and C minor) are examples of parallel scales. They have the same tonic.

Now, as to where to use them. This might not be a helpful answer, but you can use the major pentatonic where you would use major modes, and minor pentatonic where you would use minor modes.

Major modes are: Ionian, Lydian, and Mixolydian
Minor modes are: Dorian, Phrygian, and Aeolian

I imagine that's not what you wanted, so I'll try to explain it further. You use major modes over various types of major and dominant chords. Cmaj7, D/F#, A7 - all of those are examples of chord symbols where you could use a major pentatonic scale. Each of these chords you would (probably) use a different mode for a full scale, but the beauty of the pentatonic scale is that it takes out the tension points. A C Lydian scale (CDEF#GABC) is different than the major scale because of the use of the F# - but the major pentatonic doesn't use it! The A7 chord would use a A Mixolydian scale (ABC#DEF#GA) - a normal A major scale uses a G# instead of a G natural. The A major pentatonic takes care of this as well, by ignoring the 7th!

The same applies to most minor chords as well - some of them get a little hairier because you have to worry about the 5th more often with half-diminished and diminished tonalities - but basically if it says minor, you should be good to go with using a minor pentatonic scale.

I hope this helped, and if I got anything wrong, I hope someone will correct me

[mambo4]

Maybe an example can clarify. Take a simple Chord progression Like :
|Cmaj | Amin | F |G7 |

It's all in the key of C (here's why)

so If you want to be both awesome and lazy, you can wing it over the chord progression with C major pentatonic.
Just follow this rule:
On the downbeat of each new chord, play the root.
Then noodle around in C Maj pent until the next new chord, and repeat.
Bonus points for leading smoothly to the next root and supporting the rhythmic feel of the style.

The usefulness of Pent scales comes form the fact that they work over almost any chord in a given key, which means you can play without having to think too hard about what the chords are.
Awesome because they are so useful, lazy because you should be thinking about those chords.

[flareaga]

Originally Posted by mambo4

Maybe an example can clarify. Take a simple Chord progression Like :
|Cmaj | Amin | F |G7 |


should be thinking about those chords.

Okay....I think I get it. C major chord, A minor because it's the sixth, F is major because it's the IV, but why is it G7? Could you just stick a G chord in there? It is a V....

Also, regarding chord tones---some chords in from the Degrees of a C major scale have notes that aren't written in the key signature. Is this what you mean by making it difficult to play the chord tones sometimes? Having to know how to harmonize each degree of a scale?

And the pentatonic scales are basically all the "safe" notes?