I learned all the modes! what do i do with them?

[santucci218]

yes i saw the other modes post, but this question is a little different. How do i apply the modes to my playing style? are there modes i cant play while someone is playing another mode?

[u2Fletch]

Well, one thing it can you help you with is if you are looking to expand your palette of available notes to play beyond your basic arpeggio shapes.

For example, if the key of the song you are playing is in "D", and you see an "A7" on the lead sheet you should be able to, on the fly, recognize that "A" is the fifth relative to "D" and therefore you can play notes from the fifth mode ("A" Mixolydian)

You are playing notes within the "D" major scale, so there should be no problem conflicting with anyone else. In theory...

Does this help at all?

Jeff

[santucci218]

it does help...but i dont see why that is any better than me staying on the d major scale.

[MistaMarko]

if you're doing like a ascending scale pattern..you could start on A instead of D, so you wont sound boring.

[IconBasser]

all that stuff is really useful for walking bass lines and lead parts. See if you can't apply em to that. I use em' all the time for those.

P.S. you learned all of em? methinks that would take quite some time to learn every mode there is. Think of all the different scales there are! then multiply those by 7 modes for each.. ay-ay-ay!!

[MistaMarko]

well, there are only 7 modal patterns..isnt that hard.

[DocBop]

If you ask that question you don't know the modes, you know a bunch of fingering patterns. Each mode is associated with certain chords or sounds. Real simple answer Ionian and Lydian are major sounds. Dorian, Phyrgian, Aeolian are minor sounds. Mixolydian is dominant sound. Locrian isn't used a lot, but if I was to use it I would use it on altered dominants (the 7th mode of melodic minor would work better.)

What you need to do is record the chord related to the mode and then play around with it, get the sound in your ear. Find the notes the create the sound of the mode, like Dorian and the major 6th against minor chords. Remember modes are used many ways, for composition, solos, basslines, harmony comp'ing chords. You need to learn the sound of the modes so you can use then when you want that sound or you hear that sound in a song.

[WalterBush]

Originally Posted by MistaMarko

well, there are only 7 modal patterns..isnt that hard.

Sure, if you're counting modes derived from the major scale. What about modes derived from minor, harmonic minor, diminished, whole-tone, etc?

Plenty of jazz players have turned use of modes into quite the art form, and symphonic composers have been using modes derived from other scales for centuries. And those are just the ones written for tempered tuning, never mind some of the other tuning methods kicking around since the invention of the clavier.

[giantrobot_69]

I just use the modes to learn the neck and key centers, because if you are in the key of 'C', 'G' mixolydian and 'D' dorian are the same thing. I would suggest learning the arpeggios in the key (probably more important) and also, learning the melodic minor modes and arps. as well.

[Pacman]

Originally Posted by WalterBush

Sure, if you're counting modes derived from the major scale. What about modes derived from minor, harmonic minor, diminished, whole-tone, etc?

Whole tone and diminished don't have modes. There are only two whole tone and three diminished scales. You just start them in different places.

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by WalterBush

Sure, if you're counting modes derived from the major scale. What about modes derived from minor, harmonic minor, diminished, whole-tone, etc?

Plenty of jazz players have turned use of modes into quite the art form, and symphonic composers have been using modes derived from other scales for centuries. And those are just the ones written for tempered tuning, never mind some of the other tuning methods kicking around since the invention of the clavier.

No modes with the symmetric scales so you can drop Diminished and Whole-tone from your list. Then modes of Melodic Minor and Harmonic minor exisit, but usually only a couple of the modes of those scales are used. Like Melodic Minor the Lydian b7 and Altered modes. I don't use the Harmonic minor much, but hear one of its modes used frequently. Even the modes of the major scale only a few are used regularly.

Modes is an overloaded word, it has a lot of meanings depending on how or who is using them. The problem is many people let the word scare them. They need to treat modes like they do learning bass, a little at a time. When you pickup the bass you don't learn major, minor and pentatonic scale in twelve keys all at once, you learn a one or two at a time. Modes should be approached the same way.

[santucci218]

i learned all the major modes in C so far. im just wondering how to utilize them

[Mark Wilson]

I thought I learned all the modes as well, then I found out Harmonic Minor, and Jazz Minor have modes.

Screw you Altered


Anyway, take a tune, like Autumn Leaves for example. Fairly easy, and filled with II-V's.

Learn the Guide Tones for each chord, and alternate (The 3rds and the 7ths)

Once you have them flowing, use the modes over the chords starting on the 3rd or 7th, solo using the mode, and land on the NEXT guide tone.

It always alternates from 3rd, to 7th, to 3rd etc etc.

[IconBasser]

I don't use the Harmonic minor much, but hear one of its modes used frequently.

its mainly in shred. If you play shred, you're two most common scales/modes are harmonic minor and fridgean minor, just cuz they sound kewl when you play em really fast.

lol, my jazz guitarist hates shredders.
"Pfft.. Yngwie.. he sucks. Sure he's fast, but lets see him play Giant Steps or the modes in an augmented fifth"

[MistaMarko]

Originally Posted by IconBasser

its mainly in shred. If you play shred, you're two most common scales/modes are harmonic minor and fridgean minor, just cuz they sound kewl when you play em really fast.

lol, my jazz guitarist hates shredders.
"Pfft.. Yngwie.. he sucks. Sure he's fast, but lets see him play Giant Steps or the modes in an augmented fifth"

That's a first

[Pacman]

Originally Posted by IconBasser

lol, my jazz guitarist hates shredders.
"Pfft.. Yngwie.. he sucks. Sure he's fast, but lets see him play Giant Steps or the modes in an augmented fifth"

As is that

[Jazzstick]

This is a problem many people have with understanding modes.
If all of the greek modes are the same set of notes starting on different "Roots" then "what's the Difference?"
The problem with theory is that it so often Non aural.
Ask yourself this question WHAT is a ROOT and How does Changing the root affect what we HEAR?
It's about the sound. D Dorian may be the same as C major or it may have NOTHING to do with C major. THAT"S RIGHT there are times when D Dorian is in NO WAY related to C major (even though they share the same notes).
when you are playing in DORIan Tonality C major is the cadential chord which creates the Most tension and pulls you to the D minor chord. therefore the Cmajor scale is as far removed from D dorian as you can be, and if you play C major over D Dorian you will usually SOUND unintrinsic. If you don't believe me try SINGING in D dorian (use Re as the resting tone)and then Cmajor as the cadential chord. you will see that you need to get away from C major and THINK in D dorian in order to really improvise or compose.

When you are playing through jazz changes many too many people who rely on scales without having them IN THEIR EARS. this becomes noodleing and often unmusical. you should play A mixo instead of D major when you hear that you want to play it. Remember it's THEORY so if what you are hearing (and playing) can be better defined by nameing after A mixo then do so. In other word what is a ROOT and what role does it play in music. How do we hear Roots?

Resting tones mean EVERYTHING in Music it's the pull and play between the note and different tonalities which make music what it is.

I rambling because this is a big subject. My point is this- it's about the sound and often the melodies/basslines created by a different mode (made of the same notes) will sound different because you are thinking of the notes as having different relationships to each other.

Jazzstick

[WalterBush]

Originally Posted by Pacman

Whole tone and diminished don't have modes. There are only two whole tone and three diminished scales. You just start them in different places.

You're right. I've just been caught out throwing out examples without thinking, which makes them mistakes, not examples, and shows how long it's been since I've even looked at theory seriously. My bad.

My college jazz band had a guitarist that used to frequently write songs using the Enigmatic mode, which is the only reason I'm even aware of "derived" modes. Apparently, the Enigmatic is a favorite of John McLaughlin. It resulted in some hellacious chord changes.

I dropped the chord extensions on those tunes and either went atonal or stayed within more standard modes, depending on my mood.

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by Mark Wilson

Anyway, take a tune, like Autumn Leaves for example. Fairly easy, and filled with II-V's.

Learn the Guide Tones for each chord, and alternate (The 3rds and the 7ths)

Make it easier on the him since he's just getting started. Autumn Leaves can be looked at as two key centers Bb major and G minor. Yup, they are major and relative minor so all the notes are the same. So the challenge is to make Bb sound major and G sound minor. So he can play Ionian and Aeolian modes. Its a good excercise for beginning improvisors.

[Thunder_Fingers]

As im not willing to make a new thread for this:

On a C major chord, could i for instance play a G Mixolydian scale over that without it sounding bad?
I have not quite understanded the function of modes yet, as they are all the same notes, i feel i should be able to play any of the modes of the C major scale over a C chord?