I need help finding key signatures./merged thread

[Nickthebassist]

Hmmm yah....interesting. So if I was to get a guitarist to put a solo to that osng, would it be in the key of Cmajor?

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Originally Posted by Nickthebassist

Hmmm yah....interesting. So if I was to get a guitarist to put a solo to that osng, would it be in the key of Cmajor?

No, he would solo in C minor (Cm stands for C minor). One of the good things about playing in minor keys is that there aren't really avoid notes like there are in major keys. If the song was in C major, he would have to pay more attention to the chord changes when he solos so he wouldn't hit "off" notes, but with minors it can be a little more key-oriented than chord-oriented.

[Nickthebassist]

Nice....perhaps my band can do HYRM, but turn it into a big break down solo fest in the middle, then bring it all back together.....that'd be pretty nice. Talking of soloing, me and the drummer in my band did some really bluesy jamming the other day....I found improvising to a Blues Type beat really easy, and found I could do all sorts of little things that I can;t normally do in a band setting.

[jive1]

Originally Posted by Bryan R. Tyler

No, he would solo in C minor (Cm stands for C minor). One of the good things about playing in minor keys is that there aren't really avoid notes like there are in major keys. If the song was in C major, he would have to pay more attention to the chord changes when he solos so he wouldn't hit "off" notes, but with minors it can be a little more key-oriented than chord-oriented.

There's some truth to this, but it is not a steadfast rule by any means. For example if the chord is a C major or C7, there's no reason why you can't play a C minor scale over it. This causes tension. It's tension and resolution that makes a solo interesting. For example, say you're jamming on a C major chord. You can play C major stuff over it, and to create some tension you can play a C minor scale, and then resolve by going back to a C major scale.

The chord is a good indicator of what you can solo over it, but it shouldn't limit you either.

[Mark Latimour]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

Well I think it's worth pointing out that, if I had been expelled, then I wouldn't be very proud of that fact and I certainly wouldn't be publicising it all over the internet and then expecting people to help me?

Worth pointing out to who?

Why would anyone care what you would do in this situation given that you arn't the one asking or answering the question. Therefore, what have you added other than unecessary negativity?

Its hostile and completely unhelpful responses that keep "newbies" from asking questions. I realise that you dont think of this place as "helpbass", but if you dont want to help, why bother reading and responding to the thread at all?

indeed

[Whafrodamus]

Originally Posted by Mark Latimour

Worth pointing out to who?

Why would anyone care what you would do in this situation given that you arn't the one asking or answering the question. Therefore, what have you added other than unecessary negativity?

Its hostile and completely unhelpful responses that keep "newbies" from asking questions. I realise that you dont think of this place as "helpbass", but if you dont want to help, why bother reading and responding to the thread at all?

indeed

^He has a point.

[dlloyd]

I've reformatted the discussion we were having for simplicity. It might be helpful if people don't jump in with suggestions (yeah, I know, this is a public forum)...

Originally Posted by Nickthebassist

OK, I was starting to do this in my school bass lessons, but then I got expelled. It's pretty complex for me to take in, so can someone help? I'm doing this as part of my grade 6 work, but it's all very complex. Can someone justl ay out some simple rules?

Originally Posted by Nickthebassist

You're confusing me. I don;t udnerstand all this 'key' stuff. I never have. What does KEY actually mean? What is KEY? How do you find something's key? I'm confused.

Originally Posted by dlloyd

Nick, let's take this in a few steps...

A key is just a bunch of notes that work well together to make tunes. Play a major scale starting on, say, a G. All those notes are all in the key of G major. Play a major scale starting on C. Those notes are all in the key of C major.

Compare the notes that are in G major with the notes that are in C major. Most of them are the same, one is different... can you figure out which one that is?

Originally Posted by Nickthebassist

+2 +2 +1 +2 +2 +2 +1
G A B C D E F# G

+2 +2 +1 +2 +2 +2 +1
C D E F G A B C

TA DA!

Originally Posted by dlloyd

Good.

When you read standard notation, at the beginning of each stave, you'll see first of all a bar line, then a clef (usually a bass clef for us... that's the thing that looks like a back to front C with two dots after it), then the key signature. On the first stave you'll also see the time signature.

The key signature will usually have either sharps (#), flats (b) or neither in it. The key signature gives you an indication of what key you're in:

If it has neither, it's easy... you're either in C major or its relative minor, A minor.

If it has one sharp, as you've figured out, you'll be in G major or its relative minor, E minor.

Got that so far?

Originally Posted by Nickthebassist

It's starting to make sense. I havent been taught how to work minors out yet(I'm gonna be getting taught), but jsut not yet.

Okay Nick, we'll stick to major keys for the moment. How about writing out the notes in the major scales starting from F, Bb, Eb, D and A?

[Nickthebassist]

O go on then:
F G A A# C D E F

Bb C D D# F G A Bb

Eb F G A B C D D#

D E F# G A B D# D

A B D# D E F# G# A

[dlloyd]

Originally Posted by Nickthebassist

O go on then:
F G A A# C D E F

Bb C D D# F G A Bb

Eb F G A B C D D#

D E F# G A B D# D

A B D# D E F# G# A

That's an okay start. You've essentially got the notes right in the first two, you've followed your +2 +2 +1 +2 +2 +2 +1 rule.

However, we have a rule we have to follow here that says we can't have two notes with the same letter name. You can't mix sharps naturals and flats. For example, if you've already got an "A", you can't follow it with an "A#". The note becomes "Bb"

So if you're writing out the notes in F major, instead of...

F G A A# C D E F

you have...

F G A Bb C D E F = 1 flat.

Likewise, for Bb major, you should have...

Bb C D Eb F G A Bb = 2 flats

Your Eb major is a bit iffy though...

Eb F G A B C D D#

That's +2, +2, +2, +2, +1, +2, +1

Your +2 +2 +1 +2 +2 +2 +1 should give:

Eb F G Ab Bb C D Eb = 3 flats

For D major, you had...

D E F# G A B D# D

Which should be...

D E F# G A B C# D = 2 sharps

And your A major you have...

A B D# D E F# G# A

Which should be...

A B C# D E F# G# A

(I'm guessing the last two were just typos)

So far, you've got

Eb major = 3 flats
Bb major = 2 flats
F major = 1 flat
C major = 0 flats/sharps
G major = 1 sharp
D major = 2 sharps
A major = 3 sharps

Does this make sense so far?

[Nickthebassist]

Yes, I knew I would have to mess up somewhere.

[dlloyd]

Originally Posted by Nickthebassist

Yes, I knew I would have to mess up somewhere.

That's cool. We've got...

Eb major = 3 flats
Bb major = 2 flats
F major = 1 flat
C major = 0 flats/sharps
G major = 1 sharp
D major = 2 sharps
A major = 3 sharps

That stuff can be hard to remember, luckily you don't have to straight away. There's an easier way.

You know about intervals? Like D is the major second of C, E is the major third of C, etc.?

Try figuring out the intervals between Eb and Bb; Bb and F; F and C; C and G; G and D; and D and A (hint: they're all the same). If you can't work out the technical term, the number of frets between the notes will do (like you did for working out the scales above)

[Nickthebassist]

Eb-Bb=Interval of 7, right?
Bb-F=Interval of 7, right?
Wehn I say interval of 7, I mean there's 7 frets, is this the correct way to work out intervals?

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Originally Posted by Nickthebassist

Eb-Bb=Interval of 7, right?
Bb-F=Interval of 7, right?
Wehn I say interval of 7, I mean there's 7 frets, is this the correct way to work out intervals?

No. Here's an easy way to think about it. Picture a C major scale, the pattern being:
G--------------------A-B-C
D------------- E-F-G
A---------C-D
E----
And you would finger this 2-4, 1-2-4, 1-3-4.
Intervals are the distances between the steps of the scale. So starting at C, a major seventh interval would be seven steps between C and the note seven steps up from it. So if we look at the scale in terms of numbers, it looks like this:
G-------------6-7-8
D------3-4-5
A--1-2
E
So the major 7th interval of C is B. A minor seventh (not a major) which is also the seventh used in Dominant seventh chords is a half-step down from that, which would be Bb, so if you see something that just says 'seventh' and not 'major seventh', you can assume it's the minor seventh.

So by going by this guideline, Eb-Bb is an interval of 5, and Bb-F is an interval of 5 as well, commonly called a "fifth."

[Nickthebassist]

That's just confusing.

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Originally Posted by Nickthebassist

That's just confusing.

Okay, here's the simplest way I can think of to explain intervals. Think of a staircase-a staircase with eight steps. Each step has a letter on it. The first step is C and the eighth step is C an octave higher, and all the other steps inbetween are the rest of the notes in a C major scale.
So the steps up say C, D, E, F, G, A, B, and C. Get it? An interval would be how many stairs are in given distance between one stair and another. So from the bottom C stair to the F stair, there are 4 steps-C, D, E, and F. That makes F a fourth (interval of 4). From the D step to the high C step there are seven steps- D, E, F, G, A, B, and C, so from D to the higher C is a major 7th interval. From low C to high C there are eight steps, which is an octave.

Now it gets more complex than that-like minor and augmented intervals (which would make you go to stairs other than the C,D,E,F,G,A,B, and C ones), but that's a way to start looking at them. The links some of the guys have provided have good interval training programs-study them a bit and it will make more sense.

[dlloyd]

Originally Posted by Nickthebassist

Eb-Bb=Interval of 7, right?
Bb-F=Interval of 7, right?
Wehn I say interval of 7, I mean there's 7 frets, is this the correct way to work out intervals?

That's good.

Intervals are fixed pitch distances... you can think of them in terms of numbers of semitones, which is the posh way of saying numbers of frets (it's also the more correct way).

The way to look at them is to think of them in terms of a scale. Like your +2 +2 +1 +2 +2 +2 +1 major scale rule.

2 semitones (frets) is a major second (+2)
4 semitones is a major third (+2 +2)
5 semitones is a perfect fourth (+2 +2 +1)
7 semitones is a perfect fifth (+2 +2 +1 +2)
9 semitones is a major sixth (+2 +2 +1 +2 +2)
11 semitones is a major seventh (+2 +2 +1 +2 +2 +2)
12 semitones is an octave (+2 +2 +1 +2 +2 +2 +1)

So the magic interval for us is the perfect fifth. We're just going to call it a fifth (we'll drop the "perfect" for now)

The order in which the keys come is determined by something called the "cycle of fifths". It goes like this:

Cb major = 7 flats
Gb major = 6 flats (Gb is a fifth up from Cb)
Db major = 5 flats (Db is a fifth up from Gb, etc.)
Ab major = 4 flats
Eb major = 3 flats
Bb major = 2 flats
F major = 1 flat
C major = no sharps or flats
G major = 1 sharp
D major = 2 sharps
A major = 3 sharps
E major = 4 sharps
B major = 5 sharps
F# major = 6 sharps
C# major = 7 sharps

Which sharps and flats are in which keys are also determined by the cycle of fifths

1 sharp = F#
2 sharps = F#, C# (C# is a fifth up from F#, etc.)
3 sharps = F#, C#, G#
4 sharps = F#, C#, G#, D#
5 sharps = F#, C#, G#, D#, A#
6 sharps = F#, C#, G#, D#, A#, E#
7 sharps = F#, C#, G#, D#, A#, E#, B#

1 flat = Bb
2 flats = Bb, Eb (Eb is a fifth down from Bb, etc.)
3 flats = Bb, Eb, Ab
4 flats = Bb, Eb, Ab, Db
5 flats = Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb
6 flats = Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb
7 flats = Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb, Fb

Have you got that so far? (You don't have to remember them at this point)

[Nickthebassist]

I get it now. Thanks guys. I have done all this stuff very early on, but when you've not had a bass lesson for 6th months and have had your bass books nicked by some girl who was using you to teach her bass, there's not much I can do to remember stuff.

[dlloyd]

Originally Posted by Nickthebassist

I get it now. Thanks guys. I have done all this stuff very early on, but when you've not had a bass lesson for 6th months and have had your bass books nicked by some girl who was using you to teach her bass, there's not much I can do to remember stuff.

Okay. You understand some of the theory now. You need a fair bit more than this for grade six though. The stuff we've gone through so far I'd expect from someone at grade three or four.

The easy way to remember the cycle of fifths is to use a mnemonic device. That sounds painful, but it's just an easy to remember phrase...

The one I use is a dumb phrase I learned when I was eight years old:

Father
Charles
Goes
Down
And
Ends
Battle

Using this, it's easy to remember the order that sharps and flats come. If you know there's three sharps, you know they're going to be F#, C# and G# (Father Charles Goes...). For flats, say the phrase backwards. If there's five flats, you know they're going to be Bb, Eb, Ab, Db and Gb (Battle Ends And Down Goes...)

To remember the number of sharps or flats in any given key, you just have to remember that C major has no sharps or flats and start from the next one. For example, if you wanted to figure out how many sharps were in E major, you'd count off "Goes Down And Ends" = four sharps.

Have you got that?