I play songs I know scales - I'm still s*1T

[Pbassred]

I've played for years, I've had lessons, been in bands, even been asked for lessons, some people even regard me as their go-to player, but I see other people play and I know I'm rubbish. They seem to play songs they don't know and go crazy doing it. Even though they play bum notes the audience doesn't notice and they come out ok.

I'm learning scales that I didn't know the theory of before. It doesn't seem to help me ( if I can't apply it). neither does youtube. I thing the problem is relating the scale to the chord (particularly when I don't know what the chord is).

Can anyone suggest the next step?

[bassman0221]

Music Theory?

[Bootzilla]

The first step is to realize that you have to play to the chords and not to the scales.

In short it works like this (in diatonic music, huge disclaimer!!!! right there):
The song is in a scale
The chords come from the modes of that scale (the II chord comes from the second mode etc.)

So you get the chords from the song and you play notes that come from the chords. You can also use notes that come from the scale that comes from the chords (which is a mode of the scale of the song which thus contains all the same notes of the scale).

The problem is that if you use the modes of the chords and don't pay attention to the role a particular note has in that mode you are just playing random notes from the scale the song is in with no regard to the chords.

If you have the chords to the songs you play just go from there because if you play the notes from the chord you always play "good" notes even if the piece is not diatonic.

If you want to expand you can do some research on how to match scales to chords.

It's also good to know the genre of music you play because jazz has a different approach than classic rock or pop.

Edit: if this doesn't make any sense at all go to studybass.com and learn some music theory.

[JTE]

First when you say "know" a scale does that mean that you...

A. Know how it's constructed (that is you know the whole-step and half-step formula).
B. You can figure out the notes of the scale in any key, using the correct enharmonics (that is, you know WHY the A major scale has a C# and not a Db).
C. You can sing the scale enough to know what each note is going to sound like before you play it.
D. You can find it on the neck and span two octaves (at the least) ascending and descending, and do that starting anywhere on the neck.

Otherwise you don't "know" the scale, you only know a pattern.

Then if you know that, do you know how to build chords from the major scale? That is you KNOW that:
Major chords are 1 3 5
Minor is 1 b3 5
7th is 1 3 5 b7
Minor 7 is 1 b3 5 b7
Major 7 is 1 3 5 7
Augmented is 1 3 #5
Diminished is 1 b3 b5 bb7 (and you understand WHY its bb7, not the 6)
And you understand extensions beyond the 7, as well as alterations (like you could figure out what a D13b5b9's notes are).

Then you should understand and be able to harmonize the major scale so you understand exactly WHY the one and four chords are major 7, why the 2, 3, and 6 are minor 7, why the five is a dominant 7, and why the 7 is a minor 7 b5. And be able to figure out each of those chords in any key.

Then you apply all that. You cop a bass line to a song- but you look at the chords of the song and you study what's going on there. That's how you learn to look at Jack Bruce's line on "Badge" and see that the opening bit is simply an A minor arpeggio.

And on top of all this you sing every thing you practice- the idea is that you need to hear the music in your head before your fingers get there. That's how you turn all this head knowledge into music.

John

[avenger7326]

I am first and foremost not an expert at all and everything I'm about to say may be completely wrong If so someone please correct me.

To answer your question about not knowing the chord being played you simply need to know the key of the song. And then the I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-viidim formula. From there you know that the I is a major chord, ii is minor, iii minor, IV major, V major, vi minor, and vii dim is diminished.

Basically if the root is on the 4th note of the major scale the chord is major. Playing the notes of the major chord shouldn't get you into trouble in most cases.

You can also add 7th notes to the mix. I-major7, ii-minor7, iii-minor 7, IV-major 7, V-7, vi-minor 7, viidim-diminished 7

So basically if you know the key of the song and work out the progression from the roots notes you can figure out the entire chords fairly easily.

[MalcolmAmos]

Yes to everything said. How to use all that? Well it's telling you to play chord tones. Gotta know what chord is in play to do that. Cheat. Get some fake chord or lead sheet music to the song you want to play and use that. Sing the lyrics under your breath so you can keep up with what chord is in play at this specific moment. Pretty simple if you follow the fake chord.

OK that's how to gather the notes. Main thing is take those notes and gather a groove. Fake chord tells you the chord being used at this part of the song is Bm7b5. You may not need all of that - a Root B may be enough, however, R-b3-b5-b7 may fit best. It's art and left up to you to decide what this specific songs needs. That comes from understanding a little theory and then knowing how to apply that theory.

Gotta know which chord is in play. Sheet music helps. Now, lead sheet and or fake chord will tell you the name of the chord being used, but, you have to decide how to play that chord, i.e. Root nothing, Root-5, R-b3-b5-b7, or whatever. If you can read standard notation the bass clef will tell you how the song writer wanted that chord played. Sooner or later standard notation must enter your life. If it is not already.

Good luck.

[merbass]

I'd be willing to bet that the people you're refering to that can play anything aren't concerning themselves with much theory, rather they're responding to what they feel and hear in the music. I became a much better player when I stopped thinking so much about what I was doing, and just started playing, using my ear rather than my brain. It was then that I started "feeling" music more and could play more naturally. Sure, I play some wrong notes occassionaly, but my playing became more expressive and I was able to play along to songs that I had never heard before.

[Cannabass]

^this.

if you want to be the most respected and able bassist you can be, maybe you should keep studying.

If you just want to make good music, all you need is practice and love for the music.

[Rudreax]

You can do both of course. Something you should aim for is try to know your stuff/theory/etc. so well you can use it without thinking about it. Literally forgetting it all won't help because you're going to sound bad more often than not. That's how I feel the best of the best do it; they learn so well that they can use their knowledge naturally, without literally thinking about it.

[JTE]

Originally Posted by Rudreax

Something you should aim for is try to know your stuff/theory/etc. so well you can use it without thinking about it. ... That's how I feel the best of the best do it; they learn so well that they can use their knowledge naturally, without literally thinking about it.

Charlie Parker said essentially the same thing. He said you have to practice and know all your scales, chords, and arpeggios. You gotta practice them all day, every day. Then get on stage, forget all that $#!7 and play music.

His point, like Rudreax's is that music is a language. You don't think about syntax, grammar, vocabulary, etc. when you're telling someone a story. But the better you know all that stuff, the more tools you have to make your story sound real, sound interesting, and sound personal.

With music it's the same thing. Don't eschew the building blocks of harmony, theory, and physical technique. But don't make them the building, they're only the materials to create the building. That's why I hammer repeatedly that the least important part of "knowing" a scale, or just about anything on a musical instrument is the physical part of playing it. You gotta know what it SOUNDS like.

So to get out of the sucky rut- when you practice this stuff, SING everything you play. Sing the note before you play it, fix it in your head. If you say you know locrian mode, that means you can sing locrian know that sound in your head. And practice singing stuff, then playing it (NOT the other way 'round).

Here's the hardest, but most useful exercise ever. Take a recording of a backing track without a bass line. Listen to it a few times (keep your bass in its case so you won't even TRY to play along, it's gotta be in your head and ears). Then SING what you think a cool, not-sucking bass line would sound like. Record yourself singing that line along with the backing track. Then listen. Is it cool, or at least approaching cool? Then sit down and learn to play EXACTLY what you sang. Then after you can play it, use your knowledge of scales and arpeggios to analyze it and see what makes it sound good.

THAT is what music education is about!

John