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10-17-2011, 01:41 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Alexandria Virginai | | | ii-V-1 question
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What is the ii on ii-V-I? I'm used to the 1-IV-V chord progression in simple blues. I think it's minor, but is it the minor second or the minor root?
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10-17-2011, 02:01 PM
| | | | It's the minor second of I, the root.
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10-17-2011, 02:07 PM
|  | Registered User | | Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Central Illinois, USA | | Well, the short and simple answer is that it's a minor chord. More precise answer is that it's just exactly like the I IV and V. It's the chord built from the major scale by stacking thirds starting at whichever scale tone is indicated by the Roman numeral.
Write out a C major scale....
C D E F G A B C
Then above that write it out again, starting on the third note...
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C
... then repeat it with the third note from there...
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C
This gives you the triads that occur naturally in the key of C. Note that I (C), IV(F) and V(G) are major chords; that ii (D), iii (E), and vi (A) are minor chords, and that vii (B) is a diminished triad. If you don't know how to figure these out, then get some education (I highly recommend Edly's "Music Theory for Practical People" Play, Learn, Music, theory, instruction, books, piano) and learn basic harmony and how to spell chords.
... and one more time to get the 7th chords...
B C D E F G A B
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C
So, the chords in any major scale are:
I Major7
ii minor 7
iii minor 7
IV Major 7 *
V Dominant 7
vi minor 7
vii minor 7 b5
So, a ii V I in C is Dmin to G to C (and generally Dmin7 to G7 to C or Cmaj7). *In blues the tonality and harmony don't lie in regular western music scales, so the IV chord in blues and rock stuff is a dominant 7, as is the I chord too.
John
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10-17-2011, 04:02 PM
|  | Registered User | | Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Deep East Texas Piney Woods | | Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Matti  It's the minor second of I, the root. | No. Just because it's ii-V-I and the ii is first that has nothing to do with ii being the root (of the scale). The tonic root is still the I chord. You are correct it is a minor chord ....
I...ii.....iii....IV.V..vi....viidim
C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim or Bm7b5 as John said. Bdim=R-b3-b5 Then when you add the seven Bm7b5 = 1/2 diminished and a full diminished chord has the R the b3 the b5 and a bb7.
Three major chords, three minor chords and one diminished chord like always.
Notice ii is lower case that is a give-a-way that it is a minor chord. Major chords would be shown as upper case Roman numbers. However, don't bet the farm on this. Some do not make this distinction and just list everything in upper case with a b like bII to signify it's minor. I know, I know....
Jazz will use this progression quite a lot.
Pop, Country and Rock will use the I-IV-V most of the time.
Treat ii-V-I the same way you've been doing I-IV-V.
Last edited by MalcolmAmos : 10-17-2011 at 06:50 PM.
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10-17-2011, 07:04 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Alexandria Virginai | | Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Matti It's the minor second of I, the root. | Thanks Mr Matti Quote:
Originally Posted by JTE Well, the short and simple answer is that it's a minor chord. More precise answer is that it's just exactly like the I IV and V. It's the chord built from the major scale by stacking thirds starting at whichever scale tone is indicated by the Roman numeral.
Write out a C major scale....
C D E F G A B C
Then above that write it out again, starting on the third note...
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C
... then repeat it with the third note from there...
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C
This gives you the triads that occur naturally in the key of C. Note that I (C), IV(F) and V(G) are major chords; that ii (D), iii (E), and vi (A) are minor chords, and that vii (B) is a diminished triad. If you don't know how to figure these out, then get some education (I highly recommend Edly's "Music Theory for Practical People" Play, Learn, Music, theory, instruction, books, piano) and learn basic harmony and how to spell chords.
... and one more time to get the 7th chords...
B C D E F G A B
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C
So, the chords in any major scale are:
I Major7
ii minor 7
iii minor 7
IV Major 7 *
V Dominant 7
vi minor 7
vii minor 7 b5
So, a ii V I in C is Dmin to G to C (and generally Dmin7 to G7 to C or Cmaj7). *In blues the tonality and harmony don't lie in regular western music scales, so the IV chord in blues and rock stuff is a dominant 7, as is the I chord too.
John | John, what can I say? Thanks so much for the detailed answer! I'm still digesting the post, so thanks for giving me something to work on. I've got a theory book I'm working through now. I knew the blues were traditionally based on the dominant 7th, but I'm just getting into the Jazz structures now. Thanks again! Quote:
Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos No. Just because it's ii-V-I and the ii is first that has nothing to do with ii being the root (of the scale). The tonic root is still the I chord. You are correct it is a minor chord ....
I...ii.....iii....IV.V..vi....viidim
C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim or Bm7b5 as John said. Bdim=R-b3-b5 Then when you add the seven Bm7b5 = 1/2 diminished and a full diminished chord has the R the b3 the b5 and a bb7.
Three major chords, three minor chords and one diminished chord like always.
Notice ii is lower case that is a give-a-way that it is a minor chord. Major chords would be shown as upper case Roman numbers. However, don't bet the farm on this. Some do not make this distinction and just list everything in upper case with a b like bII to signify it's minor. I know, I know....
Jazz will use this progression quite a lot.
Pop, Country and Rock will use the I-IV-V most of the time.
Treat ii-V-I the same way you've been doing I-IV-V. | Cool, thanks MalcolmAmos. For some reason the ii just registered with me over the last few days that it signifies minor, whereas the upper case numeral is the major.
Thanks everyone.
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10-18-2011, 01:33 AM
| | | The major II-V-I is usually: IIm7, V7, Imaj7
The most common scales are dorian for the IIm7, mixolydian, altered or half step/whole step for the dominant 7th chord, and ionian or lydian for the Imaj7 (you get the sound of Imaj7#11 with the lydian scale).
he minor II-V-I is usually:
IIm7b5, V7, Im7
The V7 is often used with alterations, the Im7 can also be a Immaj7 chord.
You play locrian on the IIm7b5, HM5, alt on the V7 and harmonic minor on the Immaj7. Jazz Harmonielehre - johannes-oehls Jimdo-Page! |
10-18-2011, 11:21 AM
|  | Registered User | | Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Northern California | | Quote:
Originally Posted by Johannes Oehl The major II-V-I is usually: IIm7, V7, Imaj7
The most common scales are dorian for the IIm7, mixolydian, altered or half step/whole step for the dominant 7th chord, and ionian or lydian for the Imaj7 (you get the sound of Imaj7#11 with the lydian scale).
he minor II-V-I is usually:
IIm7b5, V7, Im7
The V7 is often used with alterations, the Im7 can also be a Immaj7 chord.
You play locrian on the IIm7b5, HM5, alt on the V7 and harmonic minor on the Immaj7. Jazz Harmonielehre - johannes-oehls Jimdo-Page! | Cool website John, thanks!
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