IIm7 can be treated the same as a V7?

[over_the_moon]

I'm working through Ed Friedland's "Building Walking Bass Lines" and I've hit something that I can't quite understand. On page 45, he states "Because the II and the V work together to resolve to the IImaj7, you can also treat them as one chord". The example that follows, in C, arpeggiates over a Dm7 even as the chord changes from Dm7 to G7.

My question is: why can you treat them as one chord?

The Dm7 and G7 don't share but one tone (F). Together, they cover every tone in the C major scale except E. So what makes them interchangeable? Why does that "work"?

Thanks!

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by over_the_moon

I'm working through Ed Friedland's "Building Walking Bass Lines" and I've hit something that I can't quite understand. On page 45, he states "Because the II and the V work together to resolve to the IImaj7, you can also treat them as one chord". The example that follows, in C, arpeggiates over a Dm7 even as the chord changes from Dm7 to G7.

My question is: why can you treat them as one chord?

The Dm7 and G7 don't share but one tone (F). Together, they cover every tone in the C major scale except E. So what makes them interchangeable? Why does that "work"?

Thanks!

Because if you play the G under the Dmin7 it becomes a G9 sus4 that resolves to G7 (9). So there is actually only one note that changes and it is C to B.

[251]

Originally Posted by over_the_moon

I'm working through Ed Friedland's "Building Walking Bass Lines" and I've hit something that I can't quite understand. On page 45, he states "Because the II and the V work together to resolve to the IImaj7, you can also treat them as one chord". The example that follows, in C, arpeggiates over a Dm7 even as the chord changes from Dm7 to G7.

My question is: why can you treat them as one chord?

The Dm7 and G7 don't share but one tone (F). Together, they cover every tone in the C major scale except E. So what makes them interchangeable? Why does that "work"?

Thanks!

They are the 2nd (ii m7) & 5th (V7) Modes of C Major, so all the notes you play are "Tonic" & it works. F is found in the arpeggios of Dm7 & G7, not in C Maj. If you sound a F in the C Maj part of the cadence it will seem dissonant. Many soloists call the 4th a keep-away note over a Major chord.

I find I need to memorize the parts of Music Theory that affect my playing & treat the rest as a puzzle to solve. I don't ever expect to understand it the way I understand Chemistry or Classical Mechanics.

[TheBasicBassist]

In my opinion, the reason this works because as my mentor puts it - "There are only two 'sounds' in Western music.. resolution and un-resolution." Excuse the language, but that's basically the point.

I iii vi in major are all the "same chords" just as
ii IV V(7) vii are all the "same chords" and they, depending
melody, the changes, ect.. be substituted rather freely more so in
soloing however than in an actual bass line unless you're playing with
a very experienced player.

Hope this helps.

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by over_the_moon

I'm working through Ed Friedland's "Building Walking Bass Lines" and I've hit something that I can't quite understand. On page 45, he states "Because the II and the V work together to resolve to the IImaj7, you can also treat them as one chord". The example that follows, in C, arpeggiates over a Dm7 even as the chord changes from Dm7 to G7.

My question is: why can you treat them as one chord?

The Dm7 and G7 don't share but one tone (F). Together, they cover every tone in the C major scale except E. So what makes them interchangeable? Why does that "work"?

Thanks!

They actually share two tones D and F. Pat Martino's explanation is simply Dmi6 and G9 share the same notes and are interchangeable because of this. Taken further they share notes with Bmi7b5 so you can sub Dmi for that, though I've only ever done that soloing not walking.

Edit: We typed at the same time, I'm just slow, you can see I was headed in the same direction as The BasicBassist.

[over_the_moon]

Ahh....OK. Now I get it. Thanks, guys!

Yep, Billnc, you're right. I missed the common D between the two chords.

BTW, here's the example I'm referring to:

Dm7 G7 | Cmaj7 |
D F A C | B G E C |

[BassChuck]

The opposite works also. If you have a V7 - I you can divide the time taken by the V7 in 2 and play ii7 V7 - I. This is very commonly done in jazz and keyboard players will do this almost without thinking.

[over_the_moon]

Originally Posted by BassChuck

The opposite works also. If you have a V7 - I you can divide the time taken by the V7 in 2 and play ii7 V7 - I. This is very commonly done in jazz and keyboard players will do this almost without thinking.

That's pretty cool.

[sammyp]

much of a Dm7 arpeggio will work over a G7 .....the C note from Dm7 really isn't so great as it's the root of where you're trying to resolve to - Cmaj .....and the B which is the 3rd of G7 is not there ...the B is a solid part of the resolution from G7 to Cmaj

to answer your question - the Dm7 in C is actually a sub for the F maj (4 chord)

here are the common subs - from C major

vim - I or Am for Cmaj

iiim - vim - or Em7 for Am7

iim - IV or Dm7 for Fmaj

viim7b5 - V7 or Bm7b5 for G7


after all is said and done - good jazzers can make anything work...at least in their own minds LOL