improvising over changes

[marine18]

how do you play an improvised solo over changes

[sammyp]

That's a loaded question lol. You need to know what key the chord progression is in.....then you can make decisions about what scales to use....you also want to have a grasp on chord construction so you can work with the appropriate arpeggios or chord scales.

It helps us if we know what style you are talkng about as well. Like for blues or classic rock often one blues scale will get you by.

[jmattbassplaya]

There's quite a few good threads already out there about this, but a few basic things to keep in mind are:

1. What key is the song in/what is the chord progression you'll be playing over
2. What are you trying to accomplish in your solo and what will everyone else be playing during it


A very simple way to solo is to figure out the progression you'll be playing over and to stick to the chordal tones of each chord as you play over it. However, this will only take you so far, and it might end up sounding more like a walking line than a solo. To expand on that, use other notes in the scale on the 2nd and 4th beat of each measure and also use chromatic passing tones to move into each next chord. To expand on that even more, never start a chord on its tonic/root. Instead, start on something like the 3rd, major 6th, minor 7th, or 9th to make your solo sound more 'mature'. But even this is quite basic, but it'll get you pretty far and it'll last you a while.

Honestly, the best thing you can do is practice playing over a simple looped progression that uses chords that are all in the same key and just play over it over and over until you figure out what patterns and notes sound good. Then repeat this process, but in a different key and with a different chord progression. Eventually you'll build a repertoire of 'go to' licks that work in most circumstances and you'll be able to bust out a solo anytime you're called upon to do so.

Good luck!

[cire113]

Play the chord tones for each chord know what it sounds like then you can play anything u want even wrong notes

[elgecko]

If you're serious about getting into Berklee, you'd be wise to get yourself a teacher. Talk Bass is helpful but I seriously doubt you're going to glean enough education to get you to your goal.

[Marty Forrer]

A good solo is not a collection of scales and arpeggios, although it relys on a knowledge of those. It's a melody unto itself. It may be based on the original melody, or it may be quite different. Sing the melody in your head, then sing it again but expanding on each 2 or 4 bar phrase. The more you do it, the easier it will be. When you get a 2 or 4 bar phrase that you like, write it down if you can write notation, or sing it into a recorder. Then work it out on your instrument. Now compare it to the original.

[anonymous122511]

Originally Posted by marine18

how do you play an improvised solo over changes

Here ya go.

[251]

Originally Posted by marine18

how do you play an improvised solo over changes

It's improvisation so there are as many approaches as there are players. Here is a place to start with tunes that have a lot of chord changes.

BeBop players often played a continuous arpeggio. Start with any chord tone in the chord of the moment. Ascend or descend chord tones until the next chord, then switch to those chord tones, ascend/descend until the next chord, then switch ...

Look through the solos in OmniBook transcripts of Parker's playing to find some examples.

Hope that helps.

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by Marty Forrer

A good solo is not a collection of scales and arpeggios, although it relys on a knowledge of those. It's a melody unto itself.

Excellent! Although I would say it a bit differently - the scales and arpeggios are derived from the melody, the melody is not built on scales and arpeggios.

If you want to learn to improvise, listen to others, learn the parts you like and then synthesize your own ideas from that.

If you want to sound melodic, think in melodies; if you want to sound formulaic, think in scales and arpeggios.

[JTE]

Here's the real method...

A. Lock your instrument up in its case
B. Record the progression over which you want to improvise
C. LISTEN to that recording at least twenty times- don't do anything else except listen
D. Record yourself singing what sounds like a good solo to you over those changes
E. Now get your bass out and learn EXACTLY what you sang- every inflection, dynamic change, phrasing quirk, etc.
F. Now, analyze what you came up with in terms of seeing how the notes relate to the chords.


The point is that great improvisors are great because they have great ideas AND can execute those ideas. Start with the sound and the ideas, then move to the mechanics of playing it.

Also, listen intently to lots of great improvisors. And that unfortunately excludes most guitarists and bassist- as much as I love Eric Clapton's passion in his solos, he's not the caliber of improvisor that Charly Parker, Miles, Ella Fitzgerald, et. al. I my opinion the only rock oriented guitarists that were great improvisors (which in my opinion is NOT the same as a great soloist) are Mike Stern and Duane Allman, and possibly Jeff Beck. Most others recycle stock phrases and licks, but don't really improvise new music.

John

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by JTE

I my opinion the only rock oriented guitarists that were great improvisors (which in my opinion is NOT the same as a great soloist) are Mike Stern and Duane Allman, and possibly Jeff Beck. Most others recycle stock phrases and licks, but don't really improvise new music.
John

I dunno, I was listening to one of those PBS specials that was some big stadium blues fest (Clapton, Robert Cray buncha cats) and that guy Derek Trucks struck me as the only one that was really hearing what he was playing. I don't really listen to this stuff too much, but he was the only one I heard that was approaching improvising with concept similar to jazz musicians...

[251]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

I dunno, I was listening to one of those PBS specials that was some big stadium blues fest (Clapton, Robert Cray buncha cats) and that guy Derek Trucks struck me as the only one that was really hearing what he was playing. I don't really listen to this stuff too much, but he was the only one I heard that was approaching improvising with concept similar to jazz musicians...

This might interest you, Ed. A single track of Derek Trucks with McCoy Tyner. Look for the set with the DVD. Perhaps in the NY Public Library?

http://www.amazon.com/Guitars-CD-DVD...0954802&sr=8-6

[Ed Fuqua]

I think Herbie plays on a coupla tracks of the Tedeschi/trucs band record...

[bjabass]

Originally Posted by JTE

Here's the real method...

A. Lock your instrument up in its case
B. Record the progression over which you want to improvise
C. LISTEN to that recording at least twenty times- don't do anything else except listen
D. Record yourself singing what sounds like a good solo to you over those changes
E. Now get your bass out and learn EXACTLY what you sang- every inflection, dynamic change, phrasing quirk, etc.
F. Now, analyze what you came up with in terms of seeing how the notes relate to the chords.


The point is that great improvisors are great because they have great ideas AND can execute those ideas. Start with the sound and the ideas, then move to the mechanics of playing it.

Also, listen intently to lots of great improvisors. And that unfortunately excludes most guitarists and bassist- as much as I love Eric Clapton's passion in his solos, he's not the caliber of improvisor that Charly Parker, Miles, Ella Fitzgerald, et. al. I my opinion the only rock oriented guitarists that were great improvisors (which in my opinion is NOT the same as a great soloist) are Mike Stern and Duane Allman, and possibly Jeff Beck. Most others recycle stock phrases and licks, but don't really improvise new music.

John

I LIKE that answer a lot! What you end up with is not the least bit technical nor does it show your musical knowledge...it shows your grasp of MELODY. I know of few popular songs that were made popular by their musical complication, but almost all by their pleasantness to the ear. (I.E. the 'HOOK').

I forget who I heard interviewed that said 'a hit song is is not as much about being a great musician but by knowing what SOUNDS COOL.'

Same thing for a solo.

Just my .02C, worth every penny you paid.

[bassinplace]

Originally Posted by 251

This might interest you, Ed. A single track of Derek Trucks with McCoy Tyner. Look for the set with the DVD. Perhaps in the NY Public Library?

Amazon.com: Guitars (CD/DVD): McCoy Tyner: Music

Ooh, very nice! It's on the list!

[cire113]

Most others recycle stock phrases and licks, but don't really improvise new music.

John

I'm pretty sure all the greats especialy jazz have stock phrases and licks that they play over and over again...

but their vocab is so huge it doesnt sound like they playing the same licks...

Charlie parker played that one lick in every solo how does it go again?

[Jinro]

Here's the real method...

A. Lock your instrument up in its case
B. Record the progression over which you want to improvise
C. LISTEN to that recording at least twenty times- don't do anything else except listen
D. Record yourself singing what sounds like a good solo to you over those changes
E. Now get your bass out and learn EXACTLY what you sang- every inflection, dynamic change, phrasing quirk, etc.
F. Now, analyze what you came up with in terms of seeing how the notes relate to the chords.

Just playing Devil's Advocate here (and also because I have this problem):

Parts D and E require that you be able to match the key of the chord progression with your voice. If you're not a singer, it will be hard to do this. Just as an example, I couldn't hold a note with my voice if my life depended on it, and to make matters worse, my tone, inflection, and pitch of my voice to me sounds vastly different than my true voice, so even if I thought I had matched the key, I really wouldn't have.

Fortunately I find it easier to find the key using my instrument.

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by cire113

I'm pretty sure all the greats especialy jazz have stock phrases and licks that they play over and over again...

but their vocab is so huge it doesnt sound like they playing the same licks...

Charlie parker played that one lick in every solo how does it go again?

I disagree with this assessment.

[JTE]

Originally Posted by Jinro

Just playing Devil's Advocate here (and also because I have this problem):

Parts D and E require that you be able to match the key of the chord progression with your voice. If you're not a singer, it will be hard to do this. Just as an example, I couldn't hold a note with my voice if my life depended on it, and to make matters worse, my tone, inflection, and pitch of my voice to me sounds vastly different than my true voice, so even if I thought I had matched the key, I really wouldn't have.

Fortunately I find it easier to find the key using my instrument.

Not really. My own singing was once likened to "a duet with Yoko Ono and Linda McCartney". It gets you close to what's in your head and you use your ear to figure the rest. Plus your singing gets better!

John

[JTE]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

I dunno, I was listening to one of those PBS specials that was some big stadium blues fest (Clapton, Robert Cray buncha cats) and that guy Derek Trucks struck me as the only one that was really hearing what he was playing. I don't really listen to this stuff too much, but he was the only one I heard that was approaching improvising with concept similar to jazz musicians...

Yeah, Derek's coming very much from that intuitive approach that tends to mask all the work it really takes... but then he's also much like Duane in so many respects.

John