Innate inability?

[Zerozeddy]

Let's say there's such a thing as talent, and perhaps genius.

Or rather, let's think about the reverse.

Or rather, am I right in thinking that no matter how hard one tries, and no matter how au fait one gets with scales and modes and arpeggios, and no matter how many famous lines you transcribe etc, you just ain't got a melodic bone in your body, and your soloing is always going to be rubbish because you can't "hear" anything in your head worth playing.

I just can't see what one would work hard at to create good tunes.

[Correlli]

"Choose your battles wisely" someone once said.

If it's not happening, no use bashing your head against a brick wall. Get good at something else.

Is that what your saying?

If you are, I totally agree.

[Bruce Lindfield]

I believe there is innate "good taste" and conversely "bad taste"...

So there are musicians who sound great to me because of their tasteful playing and it doesn't matter how good they are technically.

But there are many more who may have great chops and know huge amounts of theory, but have no taste and are hence...unlistenable..

[Correlli]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

I believe there is innate "good taste" and conversely "bad taste"...

So there are musicians who sound great to me because of their tasteful playing and it doesn't matter how good they are technically.

But there are many more who may have great chops and know huge amounts of theory, but have no taste and are hence...unlistenable..

In your humble opinion of course.

[Zerozeddy]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

...So there are musicians who sound great to me because of their tasteful playing and it doesn't matter how good they are technically.

Yes - and how does one achieve that?

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Kiwi Kid

In your humble opinion of course.

Well - I started the post "I believe..." how many qualifications do you want... ...?

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Zerozeddy

Yes - and how does one achieve that?

Do you understand the meaning of "innate".... ?

[Akami]

Playing an instrument well, being communicative could be compared quite well to conversational ability.
If one studies hard they can achieve a huge vocabulary, but having an innate ability can allow some to excel in oratorical skills where others may have to work much harder to come up with lesser results, although the amount of effort put in definitely makes the difference.

For more on my opinion see post #3 by Bruce!

Too bad he had to explain what he already worded so clearly the first time.

[IanStephenson]

I don't believe it.

Sure some people will pick stuff up faster, but that's primarily dependant upon the thing in their life that have brought them to that point.

of COURE those guys with "natural tallent" sound good - they were banging their toys together in their pram, they had musical toys as a kid, they took lessons, they PRACTICED for 45 years, and then we say "Jee - look how effortless it is for him!". Trust me - they've worked at it harder than we have.

You can't expect to half heartedly mess around for a few months and decide that its fate your not the next Jaco. Realisticly everyone is always playing catch up - you're never going to get as good as "person X", caused they're better now, and they're gonna KEEP getting better (unless they die which makes things a little one sided, so it's not a fair comparison ;-)). Worse yet - their years of experience mean that not only do they get better, but they get better faster than you do!

Of course you can't totally discount genetics or fate or whatever, but its really no excuse. How many people do you know who claim to be tone deaf? There's no such medical condition? Any singing teacher will tell you that they can teach ANYONE to sing in tune (though they then go on to tell the story of one guy who was so awefull it never happend) - they just need to learn to do it.

Ian

[Zerozeddy]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

Do you understand the meaning of "innate".... ?

Do you understand the meaning of "inability"?

My hypothesis is that one's INNATE INABILITY will always prevent the hard work (that those with INNATE ABILITY don't necessarily need to do) getting you where you want to be wrt writing a satisying melody.

With me?

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by IanStephenson

How many people do you know who claim to be tone deaf?

But what they really mean is - I have no interest in singing and have no musical taste - the other thing is that some people's voices have a more pleasant tone than others.

This is just innate and there's nothing you can do about it..

So recently there has been a plethora of TV shows which are basically "singing contests" - so the contestants get the attentions of vocal coaches and to devote all their time to improving their singing and you see/hear how they do every week.

OK - maybe a lame format - but it shows you how some people can try as much as they like - their voice just sounds bad - thin, reedy - lacking interest etc. etc.

Whereas other people just have a voice that is rich, has depth and interest - innately sounds good!!

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Zerozeddy

Do you understand the meaning of "inability"?

My hypothesis is that one's INNATE INABILITY will always prevent the hard work (that those with INNATE ABILITY don't necessarily need to do) getting you where you want to be wrt writing a satisying melody.

With me?

Nope - as I thought - you don't understand the meaning of innate!!

[Zerozeddy]

Let me offer another angle on this:

Hypothesis:
Bass demands more listening skills and less technique skills than most other instruments (think I did another thread on this previously). This, as a consequence, means your ear is more critical than others' might be, so you reject many of your ideas as rubbish.

I say this because I am a professional non-fiction writer. I can't write fiction because I am too opinionated and analytical about words to find owt I write creatively worthwhile. And I think it's the same thing musically.

(OK, that sounds like hard work has made me useless at melody ;-) but I'm still interested in opinions.)

[pklima]

Just about everything can be learned and practiced - including clicking quickly with other musicians, pre-hearing interesting things in your head before you play them, the discipline to avoid overplaying... I think anyone can learn to how to play tastefully. However, wanting to play tastefully may be a matter of personality... some deeply ingrained combination of nature and nurture.

As far as natural genetic talent, it does exist but I don't think it plays much of a role. I have pretty inflexible joints and thick tendons. This makes it much more natural for me to play with "proper" technique (keep the wrists straight etc.) and makes it easier to practice for a long time without too much strain.

[Correlli]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

Well - I started the post "I believe..." how many qualifications do you want... ...?

So you did. maybe I'm being pedantic.

Having said that, when you talk about good taste and bad taste, you must remember - "one man's posion maybe another man's meat". It's a very grey area 'good taste vs. 'bad taste' IMO. The music industry as a whole, doesn't distinguish or discriminate between good and bad taste. the only thing it understands, is if a musician is in tune.

[Akami]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

But what they really mean is - I have no interest in singing and have no musical taste - the other thing is that some people's voices have a more pleasant tone than others.

This is just innate and there's nothing you can do about it..

OK - maybe a lame format - but it shows you how some people can try as much as they like - their voice just sounds bad - thin, reedy - lacking interest etc. etc.

Whereas other people just have a voice that is rich, has depth and interest - innately sounds good!!

I agree with most of your post in so much as some people seem to be born with a pleasant voice. My ex is one and I was the opposite, or shall I say, people loved her voice solo, loved our harmonies, but did not enjoy my singing except on a couple of songs.
Well we had a buddy record us one night and I noticed while listening back to it that my voice sounded good on some songs and worse than terrible on most of the rest.
That put me to work trying to figure out what was good, what was bad and I came up with;
1) The songs I sounded good on were the ones where I didn't try to sound like someone else, ie. my own voice.
2) Aside from trying to sound like many of my favorite singers, not just in timbre, but also delivery, I tended to do my vibrato from the lower side of the note so that I was only in tune at the top of the wave, way flat on the bottom, hence overall sounding like a very flat singer.
Realizing these two weak points and working hard to correct them I now have many people who like my voice, even though I'm still just a mediocre singer at best.

The way I see it is that some people are naturally gifted and with little effort can sound good; others not naturally gifted have to work at it to sound good, and finally there are the ones who are naturally gifted and bust ass on top of it all.

Steve Vai was very naturally gifted but he also played up to 18 hours a day during his summer vacation time and constantly made trips to the library to carry home every score he could find and forced himself to play everything in the scores, including timapani, violin, french horn, everything, (on guitar) until he could hear the piece just by looking at it.
That's where his huge vocabulary came from.

I think anyone that can move their hands can play, anyone who can talk can sing, and it's going to be much more work for some than others, but no doubt, we can all do it if we apply ourselves!

[ryco]

"Music is 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration." - dunno

[cowsgomoo]

believe it or not, even people who are acknowledged as creative 'geniuses' are frequently dissatisfied with the work they do

John Lennon hated the sound of his own voice, didn't like many of the recordings of his Beatles songs etc...

people wouldn't spend years and years working hard after they've made their millions, been given the gold discs and bought their mansions if they think they've already done their best work... they'd go and do something else... the fact is the people at the top of their game always think they could do better... most of us would be shocked at the low regard that many of our favourite artists hold for their most lauded work

in other words, you're not always the best judge of your ability (or inability) so don't even think about it... spend the time making music instead..

because the one thing all these 'naturally gifted musical geniuses' (like Prince, Steve Vai, Brian Wilson, Miles Davis, Frank Zappa, Jaco, Jimi Hendrix) have in common is that they spent every waking hour on their music... the myth that you can go down to the crossroads and get your talent in one easy dose is just that.. a myth

[Zerozeddy]

Originally Posted by cowsgomoo

John Lennon hated the sound of his own voice, didn't like many of the recordings of his Beatles songs etc...

Hated it all the way to the bank, as it were. If I thought something I'd done was cack, I wouldn't release it.

[Matthew Bryson]

Originally Posted by Zerozeddy

My hypothesis is that one's INNATE INABILITY will always prevent the hard work (that those with INNATE ABILITY don't necessarily need to do) getting you where you want to be wrt writing a satisying melody.

With me?

I think I'm with you - But I sure don't agree. There is no innate inability that prevents hard work - only laziness prevents hard work. Your hypothesis sounds like a defeatist attitude. People become good at playing music through hard work. That's it, there are no short cuts. Some people learn faster, but nobody is "born with it". Maybe you're a slower learner? So what. Get over it, and if you want to improve - get to work. If you want to give up, because you weren't born with the ability to solo like Jaco, then maybe you should give up.

I can't speak Chinese. Was I born with an innate inability to speak Chinese? If I tried to learn Chinese, would I be doomed to fail because I have this innate inability and therefore I'd be wasting my time to even try? Sounds to me like quitting before you ever start.