An interesting read from Jeff Berlin

[ggoat!!!]

What's ironic is that for all the technical knowledge that Berlin definitely has...one class HE could benefit from taking would ironically be a "groove" class, whatever that may be.

Some players just have no soul...er, um, uh...groove.

[Jazz Ad]

Do groove lessons actually exist anywhere but in Jeff Berlin's mind?

Work on your chops, learn proper reading and theory, gig a lot, truly earthshaking concepts we've got there. I've never heard a teacher profess anything else.

It always looks like Jeff Berlin is preaching the same gospel over and over again in his own little desert, failing to realize that his ways are the same as all other teachers.

He looks to me like the Ed Roman of music education. Is it an impression given because people keep quoting the same book or because he's only got one, I have no idea.

[Blake Bass]

Do groove lessons actually exist anywhere but in Jeff Berlin's mind?

Victor Wooten's Groove Workshop Video is one example.

[nutdog]

Originally Posted by SeaBassTheFish

Why do people post on topics they know absolutely nothing about?

Anyone else care to pontificate on the state of pedagogy of the arts in the academy?
Because we've got some real winners so far. Like flight school and "MIT calculus".

I bet you're real fun at parties.

I find many parallels in flight and music. Just doing a little learning transference. Sorry you have trouble with that concept.

[ggoat!!!]

[nutdog]

Originally Posted by Blake Bass

Victor Wooten's Groove Workshop Video is one example.

The title of that may be misleading. I've only seen a few clips, but there is quite a bit of 'factual' content and technique instruction. One that comes to mind is Anthony Wellington breaking down bass "paradiddles".

If you go to Bassology, you'll find the intro is conceptual, not so much factual, but then the subsequent lessons go into specific exercises to develop technique.

Part of it is on the student. It's easy to hear the groove part and skip the diligent study and practice part.

But I'm just posting about stuff I don't know anything about.

[ggoat!!!]

Originally Posted by nutdog

One that comes to mind is Anthony Wellington breaking down bass "paradiddles".

What does Wooten call those little indistinct fast fluttery noises that he makes that sound like turkeys gobbling super fast?

[Clef_de_fa]

I think that the approche by Jeff Berlin is music. He doesn't teach you to be a bass player and bass player cliché ! He teaches music, stuff that will be useful on every instruments.

[lowfreq33]

I learned to read in high school. I'd say at the time I graduated I was a B- sightreader. In the years since then my reading has suffered quite a bit, because after college not one person has put a piece of sheet music in front of me. Studio sessions, sub gigs, you name it. Now, part of this may be that I work out of Nashville, and number charts are the norm here. But if I get a call to back someone for say a 2 week tour, the general expectation is I show up knowing the tunes the sent me, and I'm usually expected to figure them out myself. Occasionally they'll send me charts (again, number charts), but mostly I'm expected to learn from the tracks.

Things are probably different in Jeff Berlin's world. But I think he's exaggerating (as he tends to do) the scarcity of gigs for non-readers. Yes, if you don't read you can forget about doing broadway musicals, and SOME studio gigs, maybe certain jazz gigs. But I've done plenty of artist gigs that half the band couldn't read a lick.

[Rick Robins]

Originally Posted by Clef_de_fa

I think that the approach by Jeff Berlin is music. He doesn't teach you to be a bass player and bass player cliché ! He teaches music, stuff that will be useful on every instruments.

I agree Clef da fa. I just don't get why others don't get this.

[Rick Robins]

A final thought/Q&A from Jeff Berlin. Jeff could be found on Facebook with both a private & fan page. Due to him reaching the 5000 member/friend maximum not everybody who may want to be involved in his commentary is able to do so, so some of us for various reason are sharing it here & other websites.
For those of you who think Jeff can't "Groove" check out track 7 on Jeff's Myspace. Jeff Berlin's Songs | All Songs | Listen Free and Download

Truth is Truth! Proof is Proof! And Everything Else is Talking the Talk! by Jeff Berlin

I want to thank everyone for reading and commenting on my posts this week. P.S. Self-taught musicians are not a part of this conversation as they are responsible only to their own methods of improvement.

I invited people to name any subject outside of music that was academically taught, but did not make fact of content first in their lessons.
People’s inability to answer this question, has put directly into their laps the knowledge, that music must fall into the same concept that everything else falls into.
Whatever one decides to do with this information, they cannot deny the truth of this statement, not if they cannot back up their belief with evidence to the contrary.

I also offered the 100 Top Rock Bassists link & questioned if academic rock classes weren’t involved in either the success or the playing ability of the top echelon of rock bassists? If one cannot show evidence that rock classes help people in rock careers or playing accomplishment, then rock education doesn't work, not unless one can show where it does. One cannot regard this statement as false, not if one can’t show why.

To the Blues! Name any guitarist from this list that claimed to have taken academic lessons to learn the blues.
100 Greatest Blues Guitarists at DigitalDreamDoor

If you cannot, then you are now knowledgeable of the fact that Blues academics wasn’t involved with the playing abilities or career success of the best Blues guitarists in this style. If one feels that this is not true, then it is a simple thing to support this claim by naming any Blues bassist or guitarist that stated that they learned the blues in a classroom.

The evidence shows that only music content is effective in pursuit of lessons. If you feel that it doesn't, please show evidence to the contrary by naming anyone who claims to having musical ability or success by paying teachers but not getting music in their lessons. I can prove that music is the only way to go when paying to learn as most players that studied it and entered in the professional ranks achieved their goals from their foundation based on their earlier studies based on musical content.
Off the top of my head are Stanley Clarke, Jaco Pastorius, Marcus Miller, John Scofield, Mike Stern, Vinny Colaiuta, Steve Smith, Neil Stubenhaus, Abe Laboriel, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Charlie Parker, Bill Evans, this list is endless.

Name 5 players world-wide that went to rock or blues lessons or any lesson like these, and acquired a career from it!
Note! A career is just a marker to indicate the quality of the instruction received.


This is important: It is not a case of "my way or the highway!" It is a case of "the facts speak louder than the protests agains what I say." It is "the right way or you are up the creek" if you pay incapable teachers to teach you. And many players are already up that creek right now. I'd like to guide them to a way to get down it! If one disagrees with my comments, then one has to show why, or else their counterpoints is just talk based on emotion.

I just received this quote a moment ago from someone who reads my stuff and I thought to add it here.
Someone on Talkbass suggested that teachers should be encouraging.
I agree, but I also agree with how the person below clarified this thought. It is worthy of quoting.

"A person being paid to teach should be reasonably personable, to the same extent as any paid professional should be when interacting with clients. By the time you are an adult it should no longer be the teacher's responsibility to stroke egos. (Teachers) don't adapt to all the different requests and requirements of various students in an encouraging manner when teaching calculus at MIT. They provide information in a clear, straightforward manner and expect you to work your ass off to keep up."

I agree wholeheartedly. This person absolutely nailed it!. There is nothing insensitive about stating facts and expecting that people are adult enough to embrace fact for what it is. (I don't think that too many guys at TBwill understand what this fellow understands.Some will however. Let's see!)

That's it! This is all that you need to know. Let me know your thoughts. And have a fantastic weekend. Please share this everywhere. People need to be involved in this discussion.

[nutdog]

Originally Posted by ggoat!!!

What does Wooten call those little indistinct fast fluttery noises that he makes that sound like turkeys gobbling super fast?

Ha! You'd have to ask him. I may make somebody mad, but I would compare Wooten's techniques to aerobatics. Amazing and fascinating, but not useful outside of extreme situations. But if you want to operate in extreme situations, they're what you need. A few will make a living using them, but not many. And learning them will probably improve your overall ability.

Originally Posted by Rick Robins

I agree Clef da fa. I just don't get why others don't get this.

From an academic perspective it makes sense. There are two electric bass players in the high school band at my kid's school that are learning about music in general. But on the other hand, I think they could benefit from additional instruction from someone that could show them about being a bass player.

As a side note, I can't speak to MIT but I did attend Ga Tech. Many of the teachers did not present "information in a clear, straightforward manner". They were often inept at communicating their expertise through effective instruction. Conclusion: A great player doesn't always make a great teacher.

[Rick Robins]

Originally Posted by nutdog

From an academic perspective it makes sense. There are two electric bass players in the high school band at my kid's school that are learning about music in general. But on the other hand, I think they could benefit from additional instruction from someone that could show them about being a bass player.
.

Nutdog..Funny you would mention the school bassists. This is exactly the situation I came up in. I was given no instruction How to play it. I went home & played to records & tapes. I interacted with fellow guitar players stole a bit off them & of course Solid Gold, Soul Train & Dick Clark on TV for the visual aspect/reference of pros faking it. Pick or fingers or Thumb ..Hm! What should I do. But there was no need to pay somebody for this & that's the point of all Jeff says. Pay for the musical content the rest if you seek you will figure it out & it will come to you.

[ACalbass]

Originally Posted by lowfreq33

Yes, if you don't read you can forget about doing broadway musicals, and SOME studio gigs, maybe certain jazz gigs. But I've done plenty of artist gigs that half the band couldn't read a lick.

And I think that is the synthesis of Berlin's message: he says people is unprepared,and you just confirm it.

At the same time,there is a lot of musicians that have innate talent (commonly understood as unlearned talent, free from influences) that flows naturally and cannot be contained,many cases around.
I would think those people could get farther if they acquire an education than if they not,but this also apply to those with little talent.
I believe one educates for oneself ,not because there is a requirement,some people need to better themselves,some do not want to.

[Roscoe East]

Originally Posted by dmusic148

I don't think you understand what Jeff means by 'factual content.' In massage, for example, the instructor demonstrating the techniques on a student would be considered 'factual content.' In religious training, historical documents, artifacts and such would be the 'factual content.'

Wait, what?

I don't think Jeff understands what he means by "factual content"

...or rather, I think he knows what he means, but A) he doesn't know how to express it clearly, and B) he doesn't know the right word to encapsulate what he's trying to express, because "factual" just doesn't make any sense in the context of this subject.

Is it a "fact" that the top line of the staff in bass clef is an A? Yes, of course.

Is it a "fact" that that note is the third degree of an F Major scale? Yes, of course.

Is it a "fact" that that F Major scale sounds consonant when played over an F Major triad? Ye-...uh, wait a minute: What's the context?

Jeff seems to deny rather adamantly that there is a context in music. He wants to push that off into the realm of "art" and deem it unimportant to learning the nuts and bolts of playing music.

That's kind of like saying Making Food That Tastes Good is unimportant to the nuts and bolts of cooking meals.


I don't disagree that an educated musician who can read and knows about the mechanics of music will be more employable than one who doesn't. But I think an educated musician who can read and knows about the mechanics of music and who also understands art, drama, poetry, color, shape, form, context, and a gazillion other intangibles that factor into making listening to music an emotionally rewarding experience will be even more employable...and more enjoyable to listen to.

It just seems to me that Jeff is preaching to absolute neophytes who need the most remedial basics...and so he can't comprehend that there might be musicians who are past that and yet still want to improve their craft.

[nutdog]

Originally Posted by Rick Robins

Nutdog..Funny you would mention the school bassists. This is exactly the situation I came up in. I was given no instruction How to play it. I went home & played to records & tapes. I interacted with fellow guitar players stole a bit off them & of course Solid Gold, Soul Train & Dick Clark on TV for the visual aspect/reference of pros faking it. Pick or fingers or Thumb ..Hm! What should I do. But there was no need to pay somebody for this & that's the point of all Jeff says. Pay for the musical content the rest if you seek you will figure it out & it will come to you.

You may have lost me on this one. I don't doubt that's a legitimate way to go about it, but seeking out an experienced bass teacher could shorten the discovery process. No need to pay, but as they say, time is money.

I don't recommend the 'pay for transportation content, seek, figure and it will come' approach to aviation.

[cire113]

The reason i like guys like wooten,etc way more than jeff is simple... No ego... And I'm not saying that in a bad way really..


Jeff makes ridiculous and awesome points... But his overall attitude and approach comes off really really how do i say "aggressive, my way is the only way" type attitude...

Im not bashing JEff just saying what i believe.. I respect him totally !!!

I would love to meet him in real life...

This is my opinion guys its not RIGHT of wrong>> please leave it at that


ONe of the world's best teachers!!!

[bassybill]

Originally Posted by Rick Robins

A final thought/Q&A from Jeff Berlin. Jeff could be found on Facebook with both a private & fan page. Due to him reaching the 5000 member/friend maximum not everybody who may want to be involved in his commentary is able to do so, so some of us for various reason are sharing it here & other websites.

Translation: I'm posting this on TB for Jeff 'cos he can't because he's banned.

Well, it means we get to hear what a great player has to say. I just do not get the comment earlier about Jeff having "no groove", the guy is a total groove monster in all sorts of genres.

Having said that, I do agree with the guys who have said that they wish Jeff would change the record a bit and say something new, and also those that wish he was able to communicate what he's trying to say with a little more clarity.

[Rick Robins]

Originally Posted by bassybill

Translation: I'm posting this on TB for Jeff 'cos he can't because he's banned.

Maybe it does, I don't see any harm in it. I started doing it on my own & brought it to Jeff's attention, as I would assume the OP of this thread did also. For sure it should not lead to any confrontation here between Jeff & TB members. I find what he says valid so why not share it? Also by doing so I am sharing a link so any of the 5000 folks on Jeff's pages could read & reply also. I started doing this for my own benefit & have come up with some interesting commentary from all sides along with a few local bass FB Groups I have.

Originally Posted by bassybill

Translation:
Well, it means we get to hear what a great player has to say. I just do not get the comment earlier about Jeff having "no groove", the guy is a total groove monster in all sorts of genres.

I was surprised at that one myself. Not to long ago I got to see him live & got to chat with him for a bit. I found him to be a nice at times funny man & even more of a monster player live. I hate the word groove but if what I think it is is the same as others chucking the word around Jeff has it for sure.

Originally Posted by bassybill

Translation:
Having said that, I do agree with the guys who have said that they wish Jeff would change the record a bit and say something new, and also those that wish he was able to communicate what he's trying to say with a little more clarity.

I have followed Jeff for 5 years now, he has a mission & he is the only one in his position saying it that I am aware of.

Also I find he has streamlined how he delivers his message but really how could it be made any more simple than this:
Nov 14, 2008 8:43 AM
""When somebody pays for a lesson then they ought to get a some solid musical return for their investment. It really amazes me how many players just don't understand what a music lesson is about.

Then he asks after some question him:

""Could anybody explain to me what are the benefits to learning anything other than the good content that leads to a full understanding of harmony, melody, and rhythm that will make you a better player?""

or here again today

Imagine! Some People Think that Learning Music is a Cult!
by Jeff Berlin on Saturday, February 25, 2012 ·

Dann Glenn (Quoting me saying) ‎"Just remember that Talkbass is well named!" Dann then said, (referring to a fellow who calls himself Stumbo) "This guys loquacious basket of incense, peppermints, and give the dog a bone is hysterical. He practically devours the flowers off his own self-provided Lei...and then proclaims you to be the leader of a "cult." All for simply being an advocate of music education. What are these guys so afraid of?? They're just little black notes. I just don't get it..."

Jeff answered: Some people establish a belief in their minds and then act upon these beliefs as truth. My points have been nothing except to show that academic music is the only way to learn if one is paying to learn. But for some reason, this point goes over many peoples' heads.

Bassy Bill, perhaps the nicest guy I knew during my time on Talkbass made this comment: " I do agree with the guys who have said that they wish Jeff would change the record a bit and say something new, and also those that wish he was able to communicate what he's trying to say with a little more clarity!'

Jeff answered: Here is a clear statement! Teachers that don't teach you music aren't teaching you anything worthy of your tuition. Teachers that don't assign homework of a purely academic type don't know enough about music to give this information to you. If you spend money anywhere, for any reason, to anybody, and you do not received academic musical content to help you to improve, you have thrown your money away. This is as clear as I can get!

I invite anyone that has a problem with me to focus on the following question. Here goes!

What is the most direct and irrefutable way to prove the benefit of studying academic music?

1. By showing how great players acquired their skills!

2. By comparing teaching musical facts with the way that every other academic discipline is taught: by only teaching facts!

One cannot prove the value of something unless one shows the successes related to it. Because gigs seem to count with many people in academic discussion, I thought to use their focus on gigs to prove my point about what it takes to get work. Using gigs as a barometer, it is clear that, with no exception whatsoever, everyone that ever learned how to play learned either by being self taught or by studying hard core factual music, or some combination of the two. Even learning a simple song requires representing harmony.

As with my other statements of the week, it is on my detractors to show where I am wrong in this statement. There is no other way to back up your contrary point of view if you cannot show why. If religion is based on faith, there is no faith needed here if the evidence about how one improved as a player is not in dispute. Only you can show how it isn't.

Here is a thought to ponder. Most bassists are neophytes but don't think that they are. There is so much great quality musical information out there that most bassists are not aware of. " Neophyte" is also a temporary term. It applies to players who embrace a "limited-by-choice" approach to learning how to play that many have embraced, but this can change if one decides to learn well.

Finally, i is amusing to me that by encouraging people to learn music, this concept is so foreign to some people that for them, this falls into a cult. Imagine that! Learning music is cult for some people! I wish that it were otherwise.

Thanks for reading.

[ggoat!!!]

Is Rick Robins Jeff Berlin? Hmmm...if so, I never DID get those seatcovers...