the interrelationship between notes, chords and scales, a few random questions

[cactus waltz]

Hello,

I'm back on these forums after having been away for several years. My bass guitar was stolen but my brother just got me an Ibanez for my birthday.


I have started to dig deeper into theory, always thinking I didn't have enough math head for it. Some of it is though, but I'm slowly acquiring a deeper understanding for how things work. There is still a lot of confusion though, I have some random questions that I haven't been able to figure out, perhaps you can help with them:



1. Let's say I do a blues 12 in the key of C Major. The first, fourth and fifth of that scale are C, F and G. Let's say I do it as simply as I can on the bass and only play the roots of those chords:

a.) Will I still be in C Major when I play the F note? Or am I moving it to the F scale, i.e. if my guitarist want to play solo he's doing it in the F scale suddenly?

b.) Are the scales to the key what the chords are the scales? Are the notes to the chords what the chords are to the scales?



2. I have written a nice bass groove based on a few simple notes. I want my brother to play along on guitar. How do I tell him what chords and scales the notes translate into? I could tell him to play power chords or open chords that correspond directly to the notes (open C chord for my C note and so on), but I'm thinking that's a crude and ineffective way to do it. How should I go about it properly?


3. If I've understood correctly, both A minor scale and C major scale are made up of whole step notes (A, B, C and so on). If I play a melody that only uses those notes, how can I tell if it is in A minor or C major?



Thank you in advance! I've been puzzling on this for a bit.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by cactus waltz

1. Let's say I do a blues 12 in the key of C Major. The first, fourth and fifth of that scale are C, F and G. Let's say I do it as simply as I can on the bass and only play the roots of those chords:

Yes play the C note - C C C C when the C chord is in play and when the song moves to the F chord play the F note - F F F F, etc. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUK5p...eature=related

a.) Will I still be in C Major when I play the F note? Or am I moving it to the F scale, i.e. if my guitarist want to play solo he's doing it in the F scale suddenly?

You will still be in C Major. C Major consists of these notes; C D E F G A B C and these chords; C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim, C If you play any of those notes or/and any of those chords you are still in C Major. As to your buddy jumping into the F scale to do his solo, he should stay in C. In this case the tonal center (key) of the song is still in C, the F just happens to be one of the notes and chords within the scale/key of C. Now your buddy can if he wants to play the F major pentatonic scale over the F chord. Why? F major pentatonic contains these notes; F, G, A, C & D. Every one of them is in the Scale/key of C. He is still in C but he wants to harmonize with the F chord which has the F, A and C notes in it's makeup, playing F major pentatonic scale lets him do that. -- See the last paragraph of this post. Point of interest - turn that around if you are jamming bass in the key of C you gather your baseline from the C chord tones when the song is using the C chord, then when the song moves to the F chord you gather your baseline riff from the F chord tones, etc. A generic R-3-5-3 baseline riff would work over the C or F chord - because you changed the root position.

b.) Are the scales to the key what the chords are the scales? Are the notes to the chords what the chords are to the scales?

This may help.
To make the chords found in the key of C you use those notes found in the C scale and apply the Major key formula I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, viidim - upper case tells you that chord will be major lower case tells you that chord will be minor. Each key has 3 major chords, 3 minor chords and 1 diminished chord.
C Scale = ...C.. D.. E... F. G. A... B..... C
Key Formula I.. ii... iii.. IV. V. vi.. viidim I octave
Chord = .....C.. Dm Em F.. G. Am. Bdim C

E scale = ...E, F#,... G#,.. A,.. B,. C#,... D#,.... E
Formula = ..I...ii.......iii......IV.. V...vi.....viidim....I octave
Chord = ....E, F#m...G#m, A,.. B,. C#m, D#dim,. E
See how the specific notes of the scale -- F#, G#, etc -- became the F#m chord and G#m chord with the A being only an A chord. The key formula for a minor key is i, iidim, III, iv, v, VI, VII. Use this on your C and Am question.

2. I have written a nice bass groove based on a few simple notes. I want my brother to play along on guitar. How do I tell him what chords and scales the notes translate into? I could tell him to play power chords or open chords that correspond directly to the notes (open C chord for my C note and so on), but I'm thinking that's a crude and ineffective way to do it. How should I go about it properly?

Normal way is that you will have written your baseline using one scale and it's chords. So all that is necessary for you to say is; "The next one is in the key of G and use a I, IV, V, I progression." He then gathers his solo melody notes from the G scale and his chords from the key of G and you helped him out by telling him to use the I IV V I progression or G C D G. NOW see how important it is that you write your stuff staying in scale, in key! If you write your stuff just for you to play, sure, writing what sounds good is fine, but, it sure makes it hard to explain to others what they need to play to be with you. Don't at first rely upon what just sounded good to you - if you stay in one key it will still sound good and everyone else can play with you with only a few instructions.

3. If I've understood correctly, both A minor scale and C major scale are made up of whole step notes (A, B, C and so on). If I play a melody that only uses those notes, how can I tell if it is in A minor or C major?

Good question. The chords used under the melody tell you if it is major or minor. Remember above I said that each key will have 3 major chords, 3 minor chords and 1 diminished chord...... If the song is to be played in C Major your chords would revolve around the C F and G major chords, now if the song is to be Am the chords would revolve around the minor chords - Am, Dm, Em. The tonal center is established by the chord progression used.

Here is something I wished someone would have told me years ago - it would have saved me countless hours of hunt and peck. Just keep it in the back of your memory as you go forward on your journey. To harmonize a melody line the chord used under it should have some of the melody notes in it's makeup, i.e. when the melody moves on to new notes not found in the old chord your ear will tell you the chord no longer harmonizes the melody and it's time to find a new chord that does have some of the new melody notes in it's makeup. Ask yourself why did we have to leave the C chord and go to the F chord? Yep the new melody no longer has C, E or G notes (notes in the C chord) in it and has moved on to a melody based around the F, A and C notes. That one bit of information will help explain a bunch of "stuff".

Good luck.

[251]

It's Music not Physics, Walt. Don't worry about Math.

Music Theory is just a guide to what sounds good to most listeners.

Find a copy of Edly's Music Theory for Practical People read the words & the music staff.

Good luck, 8-)

[Billnc]

Spend a majority of your practice time on chord tones, as bass players we really can't know these too well! If you're working on a blues in C learn the three chords arpeggios up and down each string, on groups of two strings, three strings and in position. A little every day. I do these for 1/2 an hour every day, on either one chord type in all keys, or through a tunes changes all around the neck.

[dogbluedrummer]

Okay, enlighten me...

Assume I was playing a song in C Major that had the chord progression C..E. That's it, just two notes for this example.

Now, assume me bassline is playing chord tones for each root note. So the C would be C, E, G.

Now when I play the E chord tones, do I play E, G#, B; or do I play E, G, B?

The real question is, do I play a major or minor third? Simply, I never knew that the chord tones of some notes in a Major scale could be minor. Is this ture???

[fdask]

Nice tips there MalcolmAmos! In my old guitar days I used to know a lot more about scales and modes than I do now... putting scales together with chords into a 'key', well thats always been a bit of a mystery.

Is it possible to have a key other than a major or minor? Like a diminished or augmented, or even a 7th? As in like, "This song is in the key of E7"??

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by fdask

Is it possible to have a key other than a major or minor? Like a diminished or augmented, or even a 7th? As in like, "This song is in the key of E7"??

Yes there is an augmented and diminished scale. If there is a scale there is a key. I'm a little fuzzy on this, the diminished scale has 8 notes I assume C diminished would have both Abm and A (major) chord. but to get the key start with the scale. Go here: http://www.looknohands.com/chordhous.../index_rb.html
for the scale notes and then apply the major or minor key formula.
As Diminished is minor (has a minor 3rd) as well as diminished so the minor key formula would be used for the chords. Augmented has a major 3rd so the major key formula would be used for the chords.

Now that E7, I suspect the correct thing to say would be E Major Blues and then it would be understood to make all the I IV V chord dominant sevenths, or perhaps there is a dominant seventh key???? not sure. That's why I said I'm a little fuzzy on this.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by dogbluedrummer

Okay, enlighten me...

Assume I was playing a song in C Major that had the chord progression C..E. That's it, just two notes for this example.

Now, assume me baseline is playing chord tones for each root note. So the C would be C, E, G.

Now when I play the E chord tones, do I play E, G#, B; or do I play E, G, B?

[quote]
G|---2---|-------|---3---|---4---| 1st string
D|---6---|-------|---7---|---1---|
A|---3---|---4---|-------|---5---|
E|-------|---1---|--------|---2---|4th string

G|---6---|-------|---7---|-------| 1st string
D|---3---|---4---|-------|---5---|
A|-------|---1----|-------|---2---|
E|-------|---5----|-------|---6---|4th string [/guote]

Lets look at what happens when we play generic root patterns like R-3-5. If we place the root pattern on an E note (on the fretboard) and then use the major scale pattern what will the 3 be? It'll be the G# automatically waiting for you. http://www.celticguitarmusic.com/basschart.htm Now what you have been doing seems OK with some of what I've seen. Some bass players ignore the minor/major even the sharp or flat, but, IMO we need not do that. If we use generic patterns (like above) and generic riffs (R-3-5-3) the sharp/flat, major/minor notes are placed automatically for us. Up to you.

The real question is, do I play a major or minor third? Simply, I never knew that the chord tones of some notes in a Major scale could be minor. Is this true???

Yes it's true. There are 3 major chords, 3 minor chords and 1 diminished chord in every key. Any major chord will have a major or natural 3rd, any minor chord will have a flatted or minored 3rd. Again some just ignore the minor note even ignore the sharped or flatted note. Like I said I see no reason to do that.
http://www.ezfolk.com/uke/Tutorials/...ord-chart.html

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Yes there is an augmented and diminished scale. If there is a scale there is a key. I'm a little fuzzy on this, the diminished scale has 8 notes I assume C diminished would have both Abm and A (major) chord. but to get the key start with the scale. Go here: http://www.looknohands.com/chordhous.../index_rb.html
for the scale notes and then apply the major or minor key formula.
As Diminished is minor (has a minor 3rd) as well as diminished so the minor key formula would be used for the chords. Augmented has a major 3rd so the major key formula would be used for the chords.

Now that E7, I suspect the correct thing to say would be E Major Blues and then it would be understood to make all the I IV V chord dominant sevenths, or perhaps there is a dominant seventh key???? not sure. That's why I said I'm a little fuzzy on this.

If it has a major third in the key it is major regardless if the one is D7 or Dmaj or D7+9 etc. If it has a minor third it's in a minor key. Different scales may come into play, You'd play mixolydian over D7 not major scale etc. And there may be many different scales for a minor tune, usually pure minor or Dorian.

[cactus waltz]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Here is something I wished someone would have told me years ago - it would have saved me countless hours of hunt and peck. Just keep it in the back of your memory as you go forward on your journey. To harmonize a melody line the chord used under it should have some of the melody notes in it's makeup, i.e. when the melody moves on to new notes not found in the old chord your ear will tell you the chord no longer harmonizes the melody and it's time to find a new chord that does have some of the new melody notes in it's makeup. Ask yourself why did we have to leave the C chord and go to the F chord? Yep the new melody no longer has C, E or G notes (notes in the C chord) in it and has moved on to a melody based around the F, A and C notes. That one bit of information will help explain a bunch of "stuff".

Good luck.

Thank you. This is one bit of advice that I would be helpful to a lot of beginning bassists. An open G major is based on G, B and D. So if you have a melody based on those three notes, you are still playing in G. Your friend on guitar can stay in G and doesn't have to switch chord for any of those three notes.

Now comes the issue of learning all basic notes for all chords. G, B and D are I, II and V, right?

[aNewRising]

E7 isnt a key at all. The dominant chord is only susespitble as the 5th scale degree of any Scale. So the key if there was an E7 chord would be A Major.

Now that E7, I suspect the correct thing to say would be E Major Blues and then it would be understood to make all the I IV V chord dominant sevenths, or perhaps there is a dominant seventh key???? not sure. That's why I said I'm a little fuzzy on this.