Jazz Improvisation

Lee Dockery · #1 10-19-2011, 07:53 PM

Hey! I've been playing bass and studying jazz/classical music for about a year now, however I am having some trouble with improvisation. I have a natural ability for rhythm and listening to music (that sounds goofy but you jazzers know what I mean). Because of this I tend to rely too much on my ears... My instructor says that when improvising I should always know where I am (technically) on the bass... (play a 9th and know I'm hitting it) I have a tough time thinking at a fast pace while I'm playing, I try to think about what I'm doing but my ears take over... I just listen to the chord progression and play by ear... which is great, but not when I'm trying to improvise over a more intense chord progression... (Bb-7 Eb7 A-7 D7 Eb7 D7#9 G-7 Abmaj7 Bmaj7 D7 D-7 G7) one of the progressions in Donna Lee.... If I listened to the chords enough I get the feel of what I want to sound like while improvising, but you know you dont have time for that... :P I try to breakdown the chords by trying to just emphasize the 3rd or 5th in each chord, but even then I have trouble... AGH, its hard to explain... its like my mind is out of balance with my ears/chops... anyone know what the hell I'm talking about?

-Lee

squiresuzuki · #2 10-19-2011, 08:02 PM

I know exactly what you're talking about. I'm in the same position. Subscribed.

_chrispy · #3 10-19-2011, 08:20 PM

I'm no expert, but sounds like you need to know the progression better and work on being able to see the harmony notes on the fretboard better so practice just playing the chord tones then start adding in the 9th and chromatic approaches.

Check out:

Fantastic chord tone exercise - with Scott Devine

Damian Erskine on Arpeggios for Bass Player's United - Part I - YouTube

Roy Vogt · #4 10-19-2011, 08:23 PM

Check this site out. Lots of good ideas and resources:
Jazz Everyone | Home

rms2 · #5 10-19-2011, 08:28 PM

I have the same problem as well. My instructor (guitarist Adam Larrabee - former NEC faculty) has me taking licks or sequences from one tune and putting them in another. This weeks example is using phrases from Groovin' High and putting them into Ornithology/How High The Moon and vice versa. That really forces you to know exactly what you are playing yet gives you some pre-programmed bebop phrases that sound great. We have also done this with Giant Steps, Confirmation, Donna Lee, Says You, Milestones, etc. I try to nail down one or two phrases a week to the point that any time I see that 2-5-1, or whatever combination in any tune, I can pop in one of those licks. And now I am getting some pretty decent facility. This is really helping at faster tempos but is also a great springboard in any tune.

Muaguana · #6 10-19-2011, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _chrispy

I'm no expert, but sounds like you need to know the progression better and work on being able to see the harmony notes on the fretboard better so practice just playing the chord tones then start adding in the 9th and chromatic approaches.

Check out:

Fantastic chord tone exercise - with Scott Devine

Damian Erskine on Arpeggios for Bass Player's United - Part I - YouTube

Agreed. I took two Jazz improv. classes in community college and they were the hardest classes I've ever taken in my life (way tougher than integral calculus.) Knowing the progression like the back of your hand is a must. Also, when improvising, practice starting each chord by playing either the 3rd or the 7th - it makes for a much more interesting melody than the root or 5th.

Basscataz · #7 10-19-2011, 11:19 PM

Hey man,

I know how you feel. It's pretty tough to get into the jazz improv zone. It's not easy. I would start by arpeggiating chords in time through whatever tune you're working on. Start in root position, then 1st inversion, 2nd, etc. That'll give you a good handle on the changes. Once you aren't worrying about where the notes/ what chords are going by, then you can really start focusing on making music.

I also find it helpful to get a transcription of a solo, learn it, and analyze it. The Charlie Parker Omnibook is a great place to start, but it doesn't have to be bird. Could be jaco, or whoever.

Anyway, that's my take on it, hope that helps.

_chrispy · #8 10-20-2011, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy Vogt

Check this site out. Lots of good ideas and resources:
Jazz Everyone | Home

Lots of good info here! Are you are member of the site? Are the rest of the lessons similar to the free ones?

Roy Vogt · #9 10-20-2011, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _chrispy

Lots of good info here! Are you are member of the site? Are the rest of the lessons similar to the free ones?

Not a member, but the free lessons seem pretty good. He has some interesting ideas.

Johannes Oehl · #10 10-21-2011, 02:46 AM

You can check out some stuff at my website, there are written out examples for jazz soloing on bass, it may come in handy.

Start - johannes-oehls Jimdo-Page!

**Pacman** · #11 10-21-2011, 05:32 AM

Since this isn't technique related, I'll move it over to General Instruction.

Lee Dockery · #12 10-21-2011, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Basscataz

Hey man,

I would start by arpeggiating chords in time through whatever tune you're working on. Start in root position, then 1st inversion, 2nd, etc. That'll give you a good handle on the changes. Once you aren't worrying about where the notes/ what chords are going by, then you can really start focusing on making music.

I also find it helpful to get a transcription of a solo, learn it, and analyze it. The Charlie Parker Omnibook is a great place to start, but it doesn't have to be bird. Could be jaco, or whoever.

This brings up something I forgot to mention.

I pick up things easily from muscle memory... For instance, when I started learning maj7ths -7ths 7th etc I would just know the finger patterns... I learned them very quickly and memorized them by knowing where the intervals are (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8th) on the fretboard in relation to my pivot/root location. This technique is great for learning them quickly but it brings up a major problem (the one I am faced with now) which is not reallyunderstanding the tonality of the chords. In summary I would just see Ab-7, go to the 5th fret on E and "do" the "minor finger patern"

This actually gives me another problem with reading. I started reading in positions, starting on C astring and keeping my fingers spread in the Cmaj position. I basically just learned by intervals, and when there is a strange accidental or need for a hand change I can get lost easily.

I think I have problems with the choices that I have when reading on ebass. You can play the same note in so many places, I have a hard time deciding when I should switch. (I actually have an easier time reading on the DB because It's more structured, so far. You have to make choices but I feel like there is less of them. Agh, bassist angst...

Sorry about the book I just rote

cire113 · #13 10-22-2011, 03:14 PM

Honestly i think the best way to learn improvisation is to play chord tones of each chord slowly so you know what it sounds like in your ear...

then once you can play chord tones... and know what it "should" sound like you can break the rules and stuff..

Im gonna start doing this

Willie_Thomas · #14 10-22-2011, 07:36 PM

Hey Lee ..,

You've just iterated the age old conflict in Jazz Education. I've been hashing this out for 80 years, first as a teenager trying to learn be-bop in the 40s, listening to Bird, Diz and Bud, copping every lick or note I could play and putting it to work with the tunes that were being played. The new language paradigm was being created a note at a time and everyone was trying to learn to speak the new language. They didn't have their slide rule out trying to calculate every note or chord that was played. It was aural and real. The cats, now called dudes, learned to speak the language and later figured out how to spell it and write it.

It's the same today. There is a jazz language DNA, based on simple pentatonic scales, chord tones and chromatics used in a variety of ways. Everything has a name, but, when you play jazz, that stuff all stays in the shed. You play jazz music with spirit, body and mind, that's what it's all about. The shed is where you take this stuff apart. If you have good ears and a good memory, you can play anything once you've trained your fingers to obey your mind. Knowing the names of every scale and chord tone is helpful, but, repetition conditions the responses necessary to play creatively. Listening to jazz tells you like and what to practiced.

If you want to see how this works, check put my Giant Steps Revealed at jazzeveryone.com. You'll see how easy it is to play difficult tunes when you now some simple melodies that fit the chords and are part of a system.

Bird lives ... Willie Thomas

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Roy Vogt · #15 10-23-2011, 02:55 PM

Thank you, Willie! That is Mr. Jazz Everyone, everybody. Check his lessons out....