Jazz Scales

Attenergy · #1 07-09-2007, 07:04 AM

Hello everyone ... I am reading the Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine and in it he states and I quote him here verbatim, "You can interpret alomost all chord symbols using just these four scales:

The Major Scale
1. The Melodic Minor Scale
  1. The Diminished Scale
    1. The Whole-Tone Scale

(sorry ... I do not know how to use this "list thing")

Now ... since I am trying to become a very good jazz bass player and I have limited time to practice, should I assume these are the scales I should be focused on?!?! However ... thumbing ahead in the book he does mention the Pentatonic Scales and makes mention of Blues and Bebop Scales as well. Also ... he goes over all the modes of the Major Scale ...

For those of you who have this book, it is on page 32 of Chapter 3.

DocBop, KayCee, PacMan and WillPlay4Food ... where are you guys?!?! I NEED HELLLLP!!!

ninnlangel · #2 07-09-2007, 07:21 AM

These scales are what you should be focusing on to get them in your ears and under your fingers. That means you should know every mode of them up and down the neck, in every key (that doesn't apply to diminished and whole tone which are symmetric). You should also play them in intervals, chords, patterns going up and down.

But keep in mind that playing jazz is not just about knowing what scales to use when you hit a certain chord. To aquire the vocabulary, to know what to do with the scales, you must listen to a lot of music, transcribe lots of music, it has to become second nature - all the excercises, the theory, and the ear training are meant to make it easy for you to play what you hear, and to hear stuff that's worth playing even when looking at complex changes.

Good luck ! And practie hard !

Attenergy · #3 07-09-2007, 07:30 AM

Sounds good .. Thanks for the great input Ninnlangel!!! It seems like my hour or hour and a half worth of practice is devoted to scales and although I feel like I am getting the "fingerings" under my belt (I am learning of a fretless) the process seems real slow. Sometimes AI do not get through all the major and minor scales in one session (I play two octave scales for all scales from E to E). So I am wondering how do you play all scales in all keys everyday?!?! Not looking so much for shortcuts but do want to get there without making mistakes or practicing something that is not pertinent to Jazz ... You mention Diminished and Whole Tone Scales are symmetric ... what exactly does that mean?!?!

DocBop · #4 07-09-2007, 09:15 AM

Ninlangel says it all. Learning to play Jazz is like learning to be a musician it take years of study and practice. You will get started playing Jazz quickly but its a constant evolution as your ears and taste learn new sounds. Also a key to learning to play Jazz is learning Real Book tunes both the head and the changes. That helps get the phrasing down. As a very old saying goes....

Practice is the best of all instructors - Publilius Syrus

Quickly those scales and the modes of those scales are all you need. For me I use major and all its modes. Melodic Minor I only use a couple of the modes, but they are key (Lydian b7 and Altered). Diminished is two scale the normal diminished whole-step/half-step and the Half-step/whole-step also call 8-tone dominant or Diminished half-step. Whole tone and I starting to use Harmonic minor a little and one of its modes (not sure what name it has). I use the Bebop scale and my lately working with Chromatic a lot. So there is always something to work on.

Attenergy · #5 07-09-2007, 09:38 AM

Thanks DocBop!!! Let me just reiterate this to see if I am understanding you clearly ... you use the following scales:

Major and the modes (particulary Lydian b7th and Altered)
Melodic Minor
Diminished
Half Diminished
Whole tone
Bebop and Chromatic ...

Do you play these in all keys or are there specific keys to Jazz?!?!

Also ... are the Pentatonic Scales important to a Jazz Bassist?!?! I know they say a lot of guitarist are fascinated with this scale.

louieeadg · #6 07-09-2007, 09:52 AM

also..."He who teaches himself has a fool for a master" hst

Attenergy · #7 07-09-2007, 10:08 AM

?!?!?!?!

ninnlangel · #8 07-09-2007, 10:26 AM

I'll also ad that I think you shouldn't get too carried away with scales. Chords are really the foundation, if you can arpegiate the chords properly to the tunes in the realbook, you have a good foundation. If you listen to the solos of charlie parker for example, it is a lot of chordal stuff.

Don't forget to learn tunes and transcribe solos (play them along with the recording, note for note, trying to blend in the sound - it'll do wonders for your time and feel)

Attenergy · #9 07-09-2007, 10:42 AM

Thanks Ninnlangel ... I'll purchase a "real" book this weekend ... anyone in particular?!?!

DocBop · #10 07-09-2007, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Attenergy

Thanks DocBop!!! Let me just reiterate this to see if I am understanding you clearly ... you use the following scales:

Major and the modes
Melodic Minor (particulary Lydian b7th and Altered)
Diminished
Half Diminished
Whole tone
Bebop and Chromatic ...

Do you play these in all keys or are there specific keys to Jazz?!?!

Also ... are the Pentatonic Scales important to a Jazz Bassist?!?! I know they say a lot of guitarist are fascinated with this scale.

I fixed your typo in quote above the Lydian b7 and Altered are modes of Melodic Minor.

True Jazz tends to be played in keys that are better for horn players and many standards tend to be played in one or two keys, but you practice in all twelve keys. Playing in all 12 keys is all about technique, fretboard knowledge, and using your theory. When you play in all keys you don't just learn fingering patterns you learn how things are constructed so you can play them any where on any set of strings. People approach this in different way like practicing in a certain keys each day.

Pentatonics are used in fact 70's Jazz used them a lot, but they tend to add color tones. John Humphrey who plays a lot with Scott Henderson knows all the Jazz resources, but loves to use pentatonics, but he definitely adds color tones to the pent's.

Guitarists (I was one for many years) tend to try to find the easiest way thru songs so pent's do show up a lot. So of the most off the wall analysis of chord changes I've seen came from guitar players trying to look at a song in one scale so they can "shred that scale".

On other side some of the most complicated analysis was from sax players. They would see one note not fitting a scale and say the person was thinking another scale for one note. HELLO can we say passing tone or just stuff happens? As you will find you get into Jazz there is no one answer for any question. In the beginning its makes things confusing, later it give you different point of view and things to experiment with.

Stumpy · #11 07-09-2007, 10:54 AM

I am also at the beginning of learning jazz bass. My instructor has said the following are very important for you to get started:

Learn - All of the major scales (one pattern in root position =easy)
Learn - All of the Natural minor scales (one pattern in root position)
Learn - All of the modes for the major scales. Once you have the patterns down then it isn't so bad
Learn - the Pentatonic scales starting "anywhere" and be able to work them into the chord changes
Learn - the walking bass line structures and work them through, slowly at first, simple songs until you have them. Then play that same song in several different keys

Once you have those things down try to play with one of the "play-a-long" cd's from Aebersold's catalogue

Listen to the masters play. Play with the CD's and try to keep up when they are cooking. Listen to big bands, combos, vocal jazz, etc. Listen...Listen...Listen.

Once you have some of those things down well...go play in a reading session band or a combo with friends. Try to get through the songs.

Once you are finished with those things ... and can hold your own in the simple stuff...we will start the next phase.

For me, it is about working through the roadmap and making sure I don't get lost and that I don't take anyone with me if I do get lost. Learning to read I think was the hardest part. I have found, recently, that learning a new instrument is easy. Learning a new instrument and reading at the same level as my first couple of instruments is not easy.

Just My Humble Opinion

Attenergy · #12 07-09-2007, 11:22 AM

Thanks guys!!!! This is GREAT STUFF!!! Thanks DocBop .. you've always helped me tremendously ... Stumpy, thanks for sharing that "roadmap"! Time to go to work this evening ... I actually woke up this morning around 3:30:AM and went through all my major scales (two octaves from E to E)!! It was pretty cool at that time with the headphones on. Might be a way for me to get in an extra hour of practice when I can! Thanks again all of you guys.

Audiophage · #13 07-09-2007, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by louieeadg

also..."He who teaches himself has a fool for a master" hst

That is utter bull***t. Having a teacher is important, but you're not going to get anywhere as far as creativity is concerned without being able to figure out some things for yourself.

ninnlangel said it good enough, nothing needs to be repeated here. I'd suggest learning every scale you can, because of the quasi-chromatic nature of Jazz.

KayCee · #14 07-09-2007, 02:12 PM

Don't forget Harmonic Minor and Harmonic Major.

louieeadg · #15 07-09-2007, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Audiophage

That is utter bull***t. Having a teacher is important, but you're not going to get anywhere as far as creativity is concerned without being able to figure out some things for yourself.

ninnlangel said it good enough, nothing needs to be repeated here. I'd suggest learning every scale you can, because of the quasi-chromatic nature of Jazz.

Where's all the anger and animosity coming from? That is not utter bullfeces. I was just trying to point out the importance of more than one source for learning, i.e. old native american saying, "It takes a village to raise a child." True, you're not going to learn everything from one teacher. You're not going to truly learn everything from a book. You're not going to absorb everything you read on talkbass. But a combination of ALL these things will put one on the right path. How do you think music has been going on for generation after generation? Someone showed somebody something...then they practiced and applied it. Lighten up Audiovirus...
And if you read what ninnlangel said, he said nothing of learning "every scale you can", he said to concentrate on chords and how to arpegiate them.

kobass · #16 07-10-2007, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Attenergy

Thanks Ninnlangel ... I'll purchase a "real" book this weekend ... anyone in particular?!?!

Go here...

http://www.bassnutz.com/showthread.php?t=1072

Cheers,
Kevin

Attenergy · #17 07-10-2007, 02:30 PM

KayCee ... glad to see you back on line!!! I cried out and you answered!!! Thank all of you other guys for this great information as well ...

Attenergy · #18 07-10-2007, 03:37 PM

Thanks Kobass ... I will get it from there ... I see some familiar names on the web page!!! You guys are the best!!!

Attenergy · #19 07-10-2007, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KayCee

Don't forget Harmonic Minor and Harmonic Major.

when are you going to make it to New York Mr. KayCee?!?!

kobass · #20 07-10-2007, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Attenergy

Thanks Kobass ... I will get it from there ... I see some familiar names on the web page!!! You guys are the best!!!

Just tryin' to help a brotha out...