Jeff Berlin, per your request

[kesslari]

Hello Jeff,

Per your request on the "Victor Wooten Camp" thread:

This is not a challenge, this is a suggestion. I want you to solo over an Eb-7 Ab7 Dbmaj7 sequence and post it here (if you have the technology to do this). I have a prediction that you won't be able to do it! If I am wrong, then I will apologize on the spot. But, I don't think that I am. Do this and we can hear your playing. I certainly can make a couple of comments if you wish. Good luck!

I finished work today and did a quick recording, per your request, of myself soloing over an Eb-7 Ab7 Dbmaj7 sequence.
Send me your email and I'll send it to you, or provide you with the location. I would have done this via PM, but your account does not have the ability to accept PM's or contact you via email, and I respect that.

I appreciate your offer of comments, and look forward to seeing an example in them of what you mean by "teachers who give students music to study".
I do hope that was your intention. We both know that "whether Kesslari can play over changes" (or to what level) is a completely different logical question than "did Victor Wooten's camp improve the musical abilities of the attendees".

Jonathan

[JimmyM]

holy cow! i read that thread and boy oh boy! i don't know how he could sit there and call that "not bashing victor's school." boy, i'd hate to see actual bashing!

[Fergie Fulton]

I said in my earlier post on that thread that this is "upping the ante". The only outcome of this intention is to prove or disprove the worth of another teacher from anothers judgement.

In any learning you trust the teacher, you do not need to question their teachings, you do the work with a "leap of faith" that what they are teaching falls into place over time.

I would personally back away from sending this "request" because it makes for a bigger conflict that just yourself proving or not proving that you have learnt.

This seems to be a situation of one teacher interfering with another teachers ways. Jeff has no "real time" invested in your education, it is a point of view he has.
Since Jeff has no time invested in you and if you start to get lost or confused who will pick up the pieces?

I was classically trained an had many tutors with many ideas, but they all fell in line with my teacher, they never questioned any of my teachers ideas as to his approach with me because that was not their business, their business was to target the weaknesses my teacher said i had not the ones they thought i had. If any of the teachers or tutors had a conflict of interest they would sort it out between themselves and not involve a pupil. The main teacher always had the last word.

If Jeff wants to find out more about Victors Camp then Jeff should talk to Victor. If Jeff feels Victors Camp is selling students short, then Jeff should talk to Victor.

[kesslari]

I said in my earlier post on that thread that this is "upping the ante". The only outcome of this intention is to prove or disprove the worth of another teacher from anothers judgement.

Yeah, it's just hard for me to back down from a challenge, even if it's "not a challenge"
Hi Fergie. You raise an interesting point. However, in reality, Jeff critiquing my playing cannot prove or disprove the worth of what I learned in a week from Victor (or anyone else), in part because it's a critique of *me* and is probably therefore about *me* as a player and student, not about the instructor. Further and more importantly, I have had (or may have had) other instructors and educational experiences. Who knows, I may (or may not) have studied with Jeff Berlin back in the day, and that may (or may not) have impacted my ability to solo (at all, well, or otherwise) over changes.
And soloing over changes is but one small aspect of the musical universe. An interesting one, for sure, but just one part.

So I'm assuming that Jeff is being straight here and offering to demonstrate his concept of what it means "to teach music by teaching and providing musical assignments" in return for my being willing to demonstrate that I have at least an understanding of what he means by "solo over an Eb-7 Ab7 Dbmaj7 sequence"

And for the record, I know that John Patitucci is not worried that I'm gonna steal his gigs because of my ability to solo over changes

[Fergie Fulton]

Great stuff and i love the way you think about your music and playing. I have been mis-quoted and had them used by Jeff as examples to "prove" his points. Hell... he even blamed me for getting into an argument with an administrator, that resulted in a thread being closed by saying "that kid got me mad"...that kid, that kid.... i'm 50, if he took the time to check and the same thing with the administrator, it says administrator on his post tag.

Now Jeff should have more respect for those around him and see a "bigger picture" to his actions.
But Jeff openly tells us what others opinions of him are to make a case for himself rather than reading and listening to others that he communicates with.
Your experience in this matter, if you fail.....in Jeffs opinion, will be used to make a case that such events are a waste of time, if you pass it will not be used as a point to support such events.

If you believe you're playing is good then so be it, don't look to have it validated in a cheap stunt that can be used against others. By the way the use of the words "its not my intention" needs to be understood in context. If it is not your intention then don't say it.

Jeff looks for validation for things he has no understanding off, that's why he is calling you out, he does not understand the consequences of what he is asking you to do....or does he?

[kesslari]

Well, still no sign of Jeff. I know he's been very busy on the "reluctance to read" thread, so perhaps that's been taking up his time and energy.

Originally Posted by JeffBerlin

I have a prediction that you won't be able to do it! If I am wrong, then I will apologize on the spot. But, I don't think that I am.

Or perhaps he doesn't like to apologize.
Who knows?

[JeffBerlin]

Originally Posted by kesslari

Hello Jeff,

Per your request on the "Victor Wooten Camp" thread:



I finished work today and did a quick recording, per your request, of myself soloing over an Eb-7 Ab7 Dbmaj7 sequence.
Send me your email and I'll send it to you, or provide you with the location. I would have done this via PM, but your account does not have the ability to accept PM's or contact you via email, and I respect that.

I appreciate your offer of comments, and look forward to seeing an example in them of what you mean by "teachers who give students music to study".
I do hope that was your intention. We both know that "whether Kesslari can play over changes" (or to what level) is a completely different logical question than "did Victor Wooten's camp improve the musical abilities of the attendees".

Jonathan

You are quite welcome! But how do I hear your playing to offer my thoughts?? Can you post a link here?

[JimmyM]

i'll tell you what i'm sick of...i'm sick of the goddamn insults to anyone who doesn't see his way on everything 100% of the time. he calls people "hillbillies," tells others to completely disregard anything anyone else says if it doesn't fall completely in line with his paradigm, and then if you get mad and call him on it, he goes into this "who? me?" routine like he's genuinely bewildered why people didn't take too kindly to his insults. i may insult people from time to time, but i freakin' own it, pal. i don't back off and pretend what i said wasn't trying to be insulting after i've made a highly insulting statement.

and then he barges into other people's threads and tries to take them over like he owns the joint. hey, come on over to my house and spit on my floor and have sex with my wife while you're at it!

[kesslari]

Originally Posted by JeffBerlin

You are quite welcome! But how do I hear your playing to offer my thoughts?? Can you post a link here?

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for replying.
I'd prefer to send it to you (as I indicated in my post), and receive your comments, so that I can digest them prior to their becoming part of the public forum. I think that's entirely reasonable. Please send me a PM (private message) with an email address and I will send you the link.

Jonathan

[bassybill]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

hey, come on over to my house and spit on my floor and have sex with my wife while you're at it!

I am SOOOOO tempted to sig this.

Relax, Jimmy. Go and check out my thread about my Dad's 80th birthday in OT (a quick search will turn it up). I guarantee that will bring a smile to anyone's face. Don't be too harsh about my playing in the videos, though.

In fact, I think I'd like you to watch them when you're a little less crusty.

EDIT Here ya go, just found the link for ya.

What do you think of this idea for my Dad's eightieth birthday?

Kesslari - I'd love to hear your playing, if you'd care to send me a link in a PM.

[JeffBerlin]

Originally Posted by bassybill

I am SOOOOO tempted to sig this.

Relax, Jimmy. Go and check out my thread about my Dad's 80th birthday in OT (a quick search will turn it up). I guarantee that will bring a smile to anyone's face. Don't be too harsh about my playing in the video, though.

In fact, I think I'd like you to watch them when you're a little less crusty. :P

CRRUUUUSTTTYYYYYY

[JeffBerlin]

Originally Posted by kesslari

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for replying.
I'd prefer to send it to you (as I indicated in my post), and receive your comments, so that I can digest them prior to their becoming part of the public forum. I think that's entirely reasonable. Please send me a PM (private message) with an email address and I will send you the link.

Jonathan

OK! I am looking forward to checking out what I hear. My advice will be based on academic principles and so I will regard what i hear from not an artful area. Cool? I prefer not to put my own email here for privacy reasons. Can you send it to zenmusic78@yahoo.com I will check it out this weekend. I will post my thoughts here. OK with you?

[kesslari]

Jeff - I sent the link to the email you provided. Thanks.

I would prefer that you send your thoughts as a reply to my email. If we both agree that the conversation is worth sharing, I'll be glad to post both a link to the sample and your comments at that point.

I'd like to avoid both your comments being posted out of context (e.g., without my playing) or, more simply, posted here for others to read before I do. I think that's a reasonable request.
Once we've had the conversation, I'll be glad to share it.

BTW, per your original suggestion, you owe me an apology if I simply can solo over an Eb-7 Ab7 Dbmaj7 sequence, regardless of whether I can do it well or gracefully... As I said, I already know that Patitucci is not quaking in his boots about me getting his gigs

[kesslari]

Actually, to simplify things (and recognizing that internet conversation is in fact a spectator sport), here's a link to the recording.
http://www.doumbek.com/personal/jeffbsimple.mp3

16 bars of playing over a ii-V-I in Dbmajor. Nothing earth shattering, nothing that's gonna land me a gig with Chick Corea, but a generally accurate representation of my abilities and weaknesses in this particular area of music.

Jeff - I'd still prefer your initial reply and comments via email. Thank you.

[odin70]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

i'll tell you what i'm sick of...i'm sick of the goddamn insults to anyone who doesn't see his way on everything 100% of the time. he calls people "hillbillies," tells others to completely disregard anything anyone else says if it doesn't fall completely in line with his paradigm, and then if you get mad and call him on it, he goes into this "who? me?" routine like he's genuinely bewildered why people didn't take too kindly to his insults. i may insult people from time to time, but i freakin' own it, pal. i don't back off and pretend what i said wasn't trying to be insulting after i've made a highly insulting statement.

and then he barges into other people's threads and tries to take them over like he owns the joint. hey, come on over to my house and spit on my floor and have sex with my wife while you're at it!

+1

[JeffBerlin]

Originally Posted by kesslari

Actually, to simplify things (and recognizing that internet conversation is in fact a spectator sport), here's a link to the recording.
http://www.doumbek.com/personal/jeffbsimple.mp3

16 bars of playing over a ii-V-I in Dbmajor. Nothing earth shattering, nothing that's gonna land me a gig with Chick Corea, but a generally accurate representation of my abilities and weaknesses in this particular area of music.

Jeff - I'd still prefer your initial reply and comments via email. Thank you.

Are you sure that I can't make my comments here? I never tell guys about their playing to hurt or make them feel bad. Actually it was quite good. But I know what you are aiming for, and for that reason, I know what you are lacking. So let me tell you what I think. The other guys here might get something positive from it as well.

1. I can hear you trying to represent the chords. Your problem is that you sometimes put notes that aren't actually strong notes to define those chords. Your solo sort of suggests Eb-7 Ab7 Dbmaj7 but doesn't actually state it outright. While I am pretty sure that you have a good idea about what and how you wish to play, your solo doesn't state this clearly, but more suggests the chords rather than spells them out.

2. Your fretless bass is a little out of tune. Consider practicing on a fretted bass if you intend to practice more chordal-type exercises. Why? Because it takes effort for fretless players to play in tune. Couple this with the effort of trying to add new musical principles to your musical skills, and you may have a more to juggle than you really to be dealing with. You should make things easier on yourself and learn new harmonic principles on frets so that you don't have to worry about pitch even while you are concerning yourself with new tonality.

3. Play way more chord tones up and down the neck throughout the chords, or any chords that you are playing. Practice them in 8th notes slowly, out of time if needs be, and count throughout. I will take a guess and say that you will not be able to do this. Why? Because to play chord tone lines and represent chords is something that takes a bit of practice to acquire this skill. NEVER USE A METRONOME WHEN DOING THIS OR OTHER EXERCISES! I will tell you straight that if you do use a click, you will sabotague ever finding a way to navigate through new exercises.

4. My suggest about soloing over chord tones is a practice principle. It is NOT about becoming a jazzer. If you take chord tones and play them through two or three Marshall stacks with a couple of distortion pedals and your drummer is Neil Peart, I defy anyone in the world to call you a jazzer.
This exercise is about musical possibilities and extending your musical vocabulary. If you are what you eat *(as the old 60's expression went) so are you what you practice and play.

I hoped that I helped!. You need some homework, but you seem to have an interest in expanding your playing. Tomorrow I intend to record over Eb-7 Ab7 and Dbmaj7 and post it here so that I can give you an example about what I am talking about. OK?

Best regards from Jeff

P.S. I apologize!

[kesslari]

Originally Posted by JeffBerlin

Are you sure that I can't make my comments here?

Actually, you just did
So yeah, it's fine.

I never tell guys about their playing to hurt or make them feel bad. Actually it was quite good. But I know what you are aiming for, and for that reason, I know what you are lacking. So let me tell you what I think. The other guys here might get something positive from it as well.

1. I can hear you trying to represent the chords. Your problem is that you sometimes put notes that aren't actually strong notes to define those chords. Your solo sort of suggests Eb-7 Ab7 Dbmaj7 but doesn't actually state it outright. While I am pretty sure that you have a good idea about what and how you wish to play, your solo doesn't state this clearly, but more suggests the chords rather than spells them out.

I think you're saying that I would do well to work on spelling out the chords more clearly. By that do you mean playing chord tones more exclusively?

2. Your fretless bass is a little out of tune. Consider practicing on a fretted bass if you intend to practice more chordal-type exercises. Why? Because it takes effort for fretless players to play in tune. Couple this with the effort of trying to add new musical principles to your musical skills, and you may have a more to juggle than you really to be dealing with. You should make things easier on yourself and learn new harmonic principles on frets so that you don't have to worry about pitch even while you are concerning yourself with new tonality.

That is a reasonable criticism and suggestion.

3. Play way more chord tones up and down the neck throughout the chords, or any chords that you are playing. Practice them in 8th notes slowly, out of time if needs be, and count throughout. I will take a guess and say that you will not be able to do this. Why? Because to play chord tone lines and represent chords is something that takes a bit of practice to acquire this skill. NEVER USE A METRONOME WHEN DOING THIS OR OTHER EXERCISES! I will tell you straight that if you do use a click, you will sabotague ever finding a way to navigate through new exercises.

Good, pretty clear suggestion. What I am currently doing (fairly recent addition to my practice) is to take a tone (say Bb) and work on playing the notes of Bbmaj7 up and down the neck. Then working on this for Bbmin7, Bb7, and Bbmin7b5. I'm slowly working my way around the circle of 5ths. Is that what you're suggesting, or am I misreading that?

4. My suggest about soloing over chord tones is a practice principle. It is NOT about becoming a jazzer. If you take chord tones and play them through two or three Marshall stacks with a couple of distortion pedals and your drummer is Neil Peart, I defy anyone in the world to call you a jazzer.
This exercise is about musical possibilities and extending your musical vocabulary. If you are what you eat *(as the old 60's expression went) so are you what you practice and play.

Understood. It is a small part of the musical universe, but one that contains a lot of potential for learning.

I hoped that I helped!. You need some homework, but you seem to have an interest in expanding your playing. Tomorrow I intend to record over Eb-7 Ab7 and Dbmaj7 and post it here so that I can give you an example about what I am talking about. OK?

That'll be great. I will look forward to listening to your post from the perspective of the concepts you discuss here.

Best regards from Jeff

P.S. I apologize!

Accepted in full.

[JeffBerlin]

kesslari - I think you're saying that I would do well to work on spelling out the chords more clearly. By that do you mean playing chord tones more exclusively?

JEFF- Certainly as the basis to your tonality, at least as you are practicing.






kesslari-Good, pretty clear suggestion. What I am currently doing (fairly recent addition to my practice) is to take a tone (say Bb) and work on playing the notes of Bbmaj7 up and down the neck. Then working on this for Bbmin7, Bb7, and Bbmin7b5. I'm slowly working my way around the circle of 5ths. Is that what you're suggesting, or am I misreading that?

JEFF What you are describing is OK, but really not as valuable to your playing. This is more of a bass-type exercise rather than a music-with chord-changes-on-it type exercise. When you are ascending and descending as you mentioned, this is not that effective in helping you to solo over chord changes. You do have some difficulty in soloing over chords and so you should regard your next step from this perspective. But if you played PHRASES of chordtones, different inversion-type composition lines based on chord tones and viable for resolution, then your playing would go straight through the roof.

[kesslari]

JEFF What you are describing is OK, but really not as valuable to your playing. This is more of a bass-type exercise rather than a music-with chord-changes-on-it type exercise. When you are ascending and descending as you mentioned, this is not that effective in helping you to solo over chord changes. You do have some difficulty in soloing over chords and so you should regard your next step from this perspective. But if you played PHRASES of chordtones, different inversion-type composition lines based on chord tones and viable for resolution, then your playing would go straight through the roof.

Sorry if I seem dense, but I really prefer to check my understanding rather than to assume that I do understand.

I think you're saying "while playing over changes, play chord tones as eighth notes" rather than "practice arpeggios". I think further you may be saying "play chord tones in phrases and different inversions as you do this".

If that's what you're saying, that's definitely an actionable practice tool/assignment.

BTW, thanks for your insights, and for taking the time to clarify them.

[liltommyg]

Is'nt this E-A-D just down a semi tone or am I missing the point,
Is it any simple three chord prog.
Does the key make that much of a difference at this point if the improv
is good?