just an observation

[ThatGermanDude]

i noticed that musicians that are used to playing off sheet music, (orchestra, piano,...) have trouble coming up with music on their own. Even though they know theory very well.

Edit: To clear some confusion: I'm talking about High School students here.

For me it is no problem to come up with something when somebody asks me to give him a bass line.

Opinions?
Discuss.

[meev992]

Originally Posted by ThatGermanDude

For me it is no problem to come up with something when somebody asks me to give him a bass line.

Opinions?
Discuss.

for example, the girl next door can play the keys, but she doesn't know how to speak, via, piano.

especially with bass, bassists are expected to be able to "spit out a bass line on demand", and that's how bassists are usually trained.

[Beast]

I've noticed the same thing. But lets of course not put all sheet-music-readers under this umbrella, there are plenty of readers that are AMAZING improviser/music writers. But generally, the average kid playing jazz lines in his HS jazz band isn't too often a fantastic maestro, but who cares?

He's enjoying it.

[BryanM]

I think this stands true primarily for classically trained keys/g**tar players and other people who learned their chops from rote memorization and strict bookwork. It's hard to infuse feeling into something that you're trying to mimic off of a page. I used to play in a band with a pianist who was classically trained and amazing. He could play just about anything you put in front of him, whether it was some funky jazz swing or straight 4/4 classical, but when you took the music away and asked him to just hang, he was way out in left field. Nothing wrong with it, heck, I'd love to be able to sight-read sheets that complex with such ease, but I wouldn't trade my ability to wander off and come back like I can for it.

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by ThatGermanDude

i noticed that musicians that are used to playing off sheet music, (orchestra, piano,...) have trouble coming up with music on their own. Even though they know theory very well.

For me it is no problem to come up with something when somebody asks me to give him a bass line.

Opinions?
Discuss.

I would say your not looking at all the facts. Classically trained and classical musician play the paper is their fort. They have masterful technique, sightread anything, and do know some improve but not their priority. Now many classical player do play jazz, rock, and even country on the side and don't need no paper to play.

Also Miles Davis, Charlie Parker, Trane, Hancock, Pattitucci, and Marcus Miller, Stanley Clarke, Victor Wooten and on and on. Can sightread their asses off, know traditional and jazz theory, arrange and compose, and create bass line or create amazing solos all day long.

I've played with great rock and blues player with doctorates in music, but in general never talk about their degrees because some look down on trained players. You will find graduates of Berklee and MI who down say they graduated until after they get gigs. You also find big name players who don't talk about all the legit' training they have, rather keep their shoot from the hip appearance.

So, yes there are some players who aren't good at making up parts, but that is the because the style of music they play requires mastery in other areas. Then a lot of masters of improv and making up parts you're over looking. Another group that don't talk about their backgrounds. Then there are some great ear players who haven't studied, but in long run spend a lot of time reinventing the wheel so they can remember and study what they learned by ear.

[cowsgomoo]

Originally Posted by ThatGermanDude

i noticed that musicians that are used to playing off sheet music, (orchestra, piano,...) have trouble coming up with music on their own. Even though they know theory very well.

For me it is no problem to come up with something when somebody asks me to give him a bass line.

that might be true for some classically trained musicians, but if you spend your life happily playing compositions by the greatest composers of the last 500 years, why would you need to be able to improvise or create your own line? Beethoven's music works perfectly well without someone needing to 'come up with something' on his behalf

but I don't think what your saying is generally true for us - bass guitar players. In my experience, bass guitar players who have good reading skills tend to be quite a bit better than average at improvisation and creating basslines...

because if you're a bass player who can read, you're a step beyond the average moron bass player and probably take it more seriously and have spent more time on all other aspects of your musicianship

if your post is motivated by trying to make yourself feel less inferior to 'musicians who read', channel your energies into something more positive

[EADG mx]

Originally Posted by DocBop

I would say your not looking at all the facts. Classically trained and classical musician play the paper is their fort. They have masterful technique, sightread anything, and do know some improve but not their priority.

backed


now I know this is a generalization and of course there are exceptions, but this is how I see it:

Classical musicians tend to be skilled in technique, reading, and perfecting pieces (this isn't to say other musicians aren't the same way).

Jazz musicians can usually read (I know some can't/couldn't), usually have good technique - but they spend more time learning to improv. and fix mistakes as opposed to just perfecting the music.


Is either method wrong? Not at all. it just depends on what you're playing and what the style calls for. Classical calls for perfection, jazz encourages improv. You get better at what you practice and people who play different music practice different things

[ryco]

My wife is a classically trained pianist and violin player. On piano since 3. And she doesn't do improv solos at all stating, "Everytime I put two notes together, I am reminded of some other tune from Brahms of Beethoven...", etc.

I told her yeah, I'm sure that every combination of two or three or four note sequence has been played, but beyond that it would be wide open. It seems to me that it would be like the mathmatical squared sequnce whereby your up into the billions of combinations rather quickly (2x2. 4x4, 16x16, 256x256....) and there are not billions on billions of tunes yet. (I hope this makes sense! I'm such a space case)

Like the poster above says, classical ppl don't necessarily train at this skill. If you don't practice or try at something, your not going to acheive it.

But to each thier own.

[ThatGermanDude]

i wasn't saying one is better than the other. and i don't feel inferior to musicians who can sight read perfectly. I can read sheet music but not very well and it is something i would like to improve in, but that's beside the point.

And I don't doubt that there are amazing musicians who can improvise just as well as sight read, but i was thinking of High School friends who play in the orchestra while I wrote the OP.
And I suppose it's true that improv is not one of their specialties. Yet, sometimes when I listen to my sister playing piano, I think something is lacking even though she is playing the piece perfectly note-wise and technique-wise. Also I'm sure there are musicians who play sheet-music and "say" more with it than other people playing improvised music.

[meev992]

Originally Posted by ThatGermanDude

Yet, sometimes when I listen to my sister playing piano, I think something is lacking even though she is playing the piece perfectly note-wise and technique-wise.

It's the funk, they're lacking the funk

[spindizzy]

Personally I love these posts that are thinly masked efforts to justify not doing the hard work.

I can read (although I am a bit rusty since I am not doing much outside my own stuff now) and if we were in the same room I can assure you that I could jam out any bass part, in any style, as fast as any non-reading bassist.

There are dozens upon dozens of well educated bass players both famous and not so famous who are just as fun to jam with as they are to work on a previously written arrangement. They simply will work more than a lesser trained musician and are likely to get exposed to more carreer opportunities a less educated bassist would be.

Now that doesn't mean that raw talent couldn't get as far, make as much money or be as wonderful as a more educated player but when opportunity knocks in the general music industry it usually comes with a piece of sheet music attached.

But by all means stay in the garage band mentality and live the fantasy that your lack of education is an asset rather than a shortcoming. God knows there are already too many competitors for the few good ops out there already and the rest of us don't need more competition.

Spin

[pointbass]

I found the OP was a little bit unusual and narrow-sighted until I read further that you're in HS and talking about typical students in a HS orchestra .... now your OP makes more sense.

Classically trained musicians express emotion in many different manners, much of it conveyed via notation on the score. While I agree that classically trained players, in general, may not be as well versed in improvization as a jazz cat, that doesn't mean they play without emotion .... actually, far from it. If you don't feel any emotional response watching the NY Philharmonic (just for one example), then you might want to examine your own ability to feel emotion.

The ability to read music fluently is, IMO, mandatory if you want to be a working professional. Of course, there are many examples of serious players that can't read, along with many examples of superstars that can't read, but for the average working professional bassist, the ability to read is a far more important skill than the ability to improvise ... the ability to do both will keep you working for a very long time ....

[ThatGermanDude]

Originally Posted by spindizzy

Personally I love these posts that are thinly masked efforts to justify not doing the hard work.

[...]

But by all means stay in the garage band mentality and live the fantasy that your lack of education is an asset rather than a shortcoming. God knows there are already too many competitors for the few good ops out there already and the rest of us don't need more competition.

Spin

i'm going to assume you're not serious in this post

[20db pad]

Originally Posted by ThatGermanDude

i'm going to assume you're not serious in this post

It's safe to assume he's dead serious in addition to the fact that he's absolutely correct. I'd replace the "dozens" of bassists he mentioned with hundreds or a few thousand.

[stedtale]

I do both.

/thread

[Linkert]

I think that people that didn't have any tabs or sheets to read from can groove better then tab/sheet-junkies.
Like Jaco, he grew up listening to the radio picking out notes by ear from the start just as every other bassist at that time. Takes longer but it teaches you how to speak/sing though the instrument.

Agree?

[spindizzy]

Originally Posted by Linkert

I think that people that didn't have any tabs or sheets to read from can groove better then tab/sheet-junkies.
Like Jaco, he grew up listening to the radio picking out notes by ear from the start just as every other bassist at that time. Takes longer but it teaches you how to speak/sing though the instrument.

Agree?

No...and Jaco wouldn't have either.

[ThatGermanDude]

Originally Posted by 20db pad

It's safe to assume he's dead serious in addition to the fact that he's absolutely correct. I'd replace the "dozens" of bassists he mentioned with hundreds or a few thousand.

i specifically meant the last, rather insulting paragraph. let me edit the previous post's quote.
I agree with the part where he says, that bassists who can do both will get chosen more often than the ones who don't.

i never said that i think not reading is an asset, in fact i said quite the opposite.

And the OP was written without any judgment on either of the two approaches.

[bassmodder]

I picked up on it by listening to the radio and cds. That is how I got started. And I will agree that classical sheet readers are much less likely to "break out" than the "self-taught" ones.

I am self taught and can read. However when I read a song right off the bat because it is hard, I find myself ALWAYS wanting to read it instead of learning it.

I think because they are reading it and it needs to be played a certain way, they feel like they may get lost (does happen) and not play the song properly.

When I am not reading and pulling from my head, I come up with all sort of whackey basslines because I KNOW the song. If I get lost I know the next note and can walk up to it. If I am reading, it is kinda hard to know what lies on the next page. Thus I limit the improvising when reading.

EDIT: I am 21 by the way. I play 2x a week with a classical pianist who has been playing for over 40 years.

[capnsandwich]

Originally Posted by ThatGermanDude

i noticed that musicians that are used to playing off sheet music, (orchestra, piano,...) have trouble coming up with music on their own. Even though they know theory very well.

Edit: To clear some confusion: I'm talking about High School students here.

For me it is no problem to come up with something when somebody asks me to give him a bass line.

Opinions?
Discuss.

IMO, there are 2 types of musicians, those who are born with it and those who learn it. I'll compare my point to a builder. In designing a building you have the architect side and the construction side. The architects are educated and trained in the art of designing buildings. They have to know everything from math and calculus to the properties of different types of building material to achieve what they want to build.

On the other hand you have the builder. Most of them can put a nail in a board with one swing and throw up a house in no time. If you need a picnic table, a deck, a barn, or anything they can do it simply because they're born with that talent and if they can't they'll figure it out pretty quick. If you teach the builder how to read and design a house using a blueprint it can be done but if you take the blueprint out of the hand of the architect and give him a hammer, it's going to be a long day.

Musicians are the same way. Some people can go to school and learn to read music up and down. Some people, like myself, can hear a song and 10 minutes later play that song to completion. You can train anyone to sight read but you can't train people to be natural musicians. You're either born with it or you're not.