Just what does 'Swing"..mean?

goolimari · #1 10-22-2007, 02:29 PM

I have heard the term 'swing' bandied about quite a lot, but cant seem to put my finger on what exactly it means..

I have heard the technical explaination, which more or less says that if the first beat is longer than the second, you are officially swinging..I tried doing it, but it sounds more like a blues shuffle to me..

any pointers on how i can get myself to swing? any particular records/players i need to listen to..

-gooli

bburk · #2 10-22-2007, 02:46 PM

this sums up pretty well what people mean when they say "swing".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swung_note

DocBop · #3 10-22-2007, 03:30 PM

When I was growing up playing people would say Swing the way people say Groove today. Kind of generic term for the band is locked in with each other and the music has that magic happening that things do when they Groove or Swing. Then people will say Swing meaning a specific style/feel. To hear Swing check out good Jazz and big band music.

From a technical stand point people differ in what they call Swing and what they call a shuffle like a Blues shuffle. I'm just going to say what I was taught, take it for what you want because I know some will disagree and they can state their case. Choose the description you like.

I was taught Swing like in Jazz Rolled Eighth-Note feel. So instead of playing two eighth note straight as in 1 and 2 and 3 and so on. They are played like an eighth-note triplet with the first two notes tied together. That give that forward motion to the Swing feel. They will still write the music as two eighth note, but the music will say Swing, or band director will say to Swing it. Maybe just give you a hard look for not figuring in out within a measure. Kind of a Dah-da, Dah-da feel.

Now a shuffle to me is like a Blues shuffle and is again a feel over two eighth-notes. This time the second note is real short and anticipation of the next beat. If written would be like a Dotted eighth and sixteenth feel. It more of a Da-dit, Da-dit the dit being short and snappy.

Now others can explain how they view it.

jweiss · #4 10-22-2007, 06:02 PM

DocBop summed it up nicely.

Listen to this Charlie Parker recording.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkvCDCOGzGc

Cheers,

Jeff

Lalabadie · #5 10-22-2007, 07:54 PM

It is more of a feel than a real measurement. Basically, you play your 8ths with a little syncopation (or maybe I'm translating wrong, but I guess the explication to follow will clear things up).

Steady rythm ( | are beats, o are 8ths)

|--o--|--o--|

Swing rythm

|---o-|---o-|

Deathblade Eric · #6 10-22-2007, 08:40 PM

Deacon_Blues · #7 10-23-2007, 05:07 AM

To me shuffle is a more broad term than swing. Swing feel is to me only an eighth-note triplet with the first two notes tied together, and swing mainly a sub-genre to jazz.

Shuffle feel may be the exact same thing as the swing feel, but you may also play the middle note in the 8th triplet separately (though mostly as a ghost/dead note). You also speak about 16th shuffles, which is based on a 16th triplet instead of an 8th triplet. Also, the lengths of the two notes can vary more within a shuffle feel than within swing, from a ratio of approximately 1,5:1 to 3:1 compared to the 2:1 for swing. At least this is how I interpret it.

Lalabadie · #8 10-23-2007, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deacon_Blues

To me shuffle is a more broad term than swing. Swing feel is to me only an eighth-note triplet with the first two notes tied together, and swing mainly a sub-genre to jazz.

Shuffle feel may be the exact same thing as the swing feel, but you may also play the middle note in the 8th triplet separately (though mostly as a ghost/dead note). You also speak about 16th shuffles, which is based on a 16th triplet instead of an 8th triplet. Also, the lengths of the two notes can vary more within a shuffle feel than within swing, from a ratio of approximately 1,5:1 to 3:1 compared to the 2:1 for swing. At least this is how I interpret it.

Very nicely said (the wikipedia article gravitates around this comparison too). For a second I thought about putting a word on shuffle but another second of reflexion reminded me that I didn't have enough wit on the subject.

Grinky · #9 10-26-2007, 08:25 AM

I think swing just means playing
----___-----------------------------__________------------
----|--|----------------as-----------|----|----|------------
----o--o-----------------------------o----o---o------------
-------------------------------------\___/

so instead of a tick tock tick tock, its more like TIC-ket-TY TOCk-ket-TY TiCK-ket-TY TOCK-ket-TY TICK.

Snerek · #10 10-26-2007, 08:42 AM

ha, after reading this thread and wiki, i'm freaking lost and confused!

DocBop · #11 10-26-2007, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snerek

ha, after reading this thread and wiki, i'm freaking lost and confused!

The key to learning any feel is listening. Get some Jazz and Blues CD's go hear some Jazz or Blues and then it all falls in place.

chasfr · #12 10-26-2007, 02:23 PM

I think it was very kind of Duke Ellington to give us an example, in the scat line following the lyric "It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that swing."

Chas

**Thor** · #13 10-26-2007, 02:35 PM

If you have studied any dancing at all, you will be aware
that the 'swing dance' is also called the 'triple step'. The
syncopated triplets are the step cues. There is extensive
Google info on it. One of the more common variations is
the Western Swing, which has a slightly different timing and
feel, and the one which is preffered to teach beginners
because it is a bit less stylized step-wise.

But I still can't dance for shinola even after the lessons.

Tommy el Gato · #14 10-26-2007, 03:12 PM

Deacon Blues has it. Sometimes we'll have a swing in my high-school marching band or jazz band, and it confuses the hell out of people. All it is, is instead of playing strait 8th notes, you play a quarter note triplet followed by an eighth note triplet. Louis Armstrong really brought out the concept big time. Pretty much anything he did was swung. The Jimmy Smith piece that was posted here is also swung. It's a pretty jazzy feel.

I'll give an example: I'll post two versions of the ever so popular "Mortal Kombat theme" in midi. The first is strait rhythm, the second is swung.

http://rapidshare.com/files/65406194...at_theme_1.mid
http://rapidshare.com/files/65405803...at_Theme_2.mid

morf · #15 10-26-2007, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grinky

I think swing just means playing
----___-----------------------------__________------------
----|--|----------------as-----------|----|----|------------
----o--o-----------------------------o----o---o------------
-------------------------------------\___/

so instead of a tick tock tick tock, its more like TIC-ket-TY TOCk-ket-TY TiCK-ket-TY TOCK-ket-TY TICK.

Yep thats how I understand swing as well.

brake · #16 10-27-2007, 12:17 AM

Broken triplets! There are two ways to think about it.. I find the easiest is in common time. Count a triplet starting on each quarter note (one trip let two trip let three trip let four trip let) but only play the first and last notes of the triple, take the "trip" out completely when you're playing.

one.....let two.....let three.....let four.....let

That's generally what is meant when someone is talking about a swing rhythm. Imagine that rhythm being played on the ride with just the hats on the 2 and 4. Sound familiar?

Audiophage · #17 10-27-2007, 08:07 AM

See Count Basie and Louis Armstrong. Swung 8ths are not like the first and third triplets in a 12/8 shuffle, but in fact closer to straight than that. It's really somewhere between those 2 feels. Basically the best way I've been taught to internalize the swinging 8th note feel is to play straight while accenting the ands.