Key center question

[bassdog]

I am trying to learn about improvising based on key centers. Can anybody help me determine the various key centers in the follow chord progression:

Cmaj7 Dm7|Em7 A7|Dm7|G7|
Cmaj7 Fmaj7|Em7 A7|Gm7|C7|
Fmaj7 Dm7|Gm7 C7|Fmaj7|Fm7 Bb7|
Ebmaj7|Ebmaj7|Dm7|G7|

Thanks!!!!!!!!

Bassdog

[Art Araya]

Cmaj7 Dm7 = C
Em7 A7 = D
Dm7 G7 = C
Cmaj7 Fmaj7 = C
Em7 A7 = D
Gm7 C7 Fmaj7 Dm7 Gm7 C7 Fmaj7 = F
Fm7 Bb7 Ebmaj7 = Eb
Dm7 G7 = C

[bigboy_78]

Originally Posted by Art Araya

Cmaj7 Dm7 = C I ii
Em7 A7 = D ii V
Dm7 G7 = C ii V
Cmaj7 Fmaj7 = C I IV
Em7 A7 = D ii V
Gm7 C7 Fmaj7 Dm7 Gm7 C7 Fmaj7 = F ii V I vi ii V I
Fm7 Bb7 Ebmaj7 = Eb ii V I
Dm7 G7 = C ii V

I've just added in the numerals so we can see the pattern. Usually when there is a m7 followed by a dom7 it is usually going to be a ii-V7, so the parent scale would be a whole step below the ii chord.

[bassdog]

thanks. That is just what I thought.

[Groove Master]

Originally Posted by bassdog

I am trying to learn about improvising based on key centers. Can anybody help me determine the various key centers in the follow chord progression:

Cmaj7 Dm7|Em7 A7|Dm7|G7|
Cmaj7 Fmaj7|Em7 A7|Gm7|C7|
Fmaj7 Dm7|Gm7 C7|Fmaj7|Fm7 Bb7|
Ebmaj7|Ebmaj7|Dm7|G7|

Thanks!!!!!!!!

Bassdog

Even if most the suggestions are good from the 2nd post, i would put a warning on the Emin7-A7 that doesn't resolve to the D maj but to D minor instead. This means that the F# is not really there in the harmony and your diatonic choice could be a E Phrygian from the chord preceding and play a D minor melodic scale over the A7 to keep all the diatonic notes as much as possible to C major. In fact, the only note you change from the C major scale on the A7 in this situation is........C that you substitute by a C# and therefore gives you the fifth mode of the D minor melodic scale.

The other possibility that is more used would be to altered the Emin-A7 by the real ii-v in a minor key which is Emin7(b5)- A7(b9). Then you should play the D minor harmonic scale over the ii-v and bring in the Bb in your solo which is the first Blue note (b7) to appear in the key of C Major.

[bigboy_78]

I was thinking the shift from C to Dmajor didn’t really make sense, but the Dm7-A7 was hard to explain any other way.

The shift from C to Fmaj/Dmin works much better. The Bb also a lot more prevalent through the progression (Gm, Eb, C7) and one would assume the melody, but the F# you would expect find in Dmajor never appears.

Nice lesson.

[Papa Dangerous]

Originally Posted by Art Araya

Cmaj7 Dm7 = C
Em7 A7 = D
Dm7 G7 = C
Cmaj7 Fmaj7 = C
Em7 A7 = D
Gm7 C7 Fmaj7 Dm7 Gm7 C7 Fmaj7 = F
Fm7 Bb7 Ebmaj7 = Eb
Dm7 G7 = C

Originally Posted by bigboy_78

I've just added in the numerals so we can see the pattern. Usually when there is a m7 followed by a dom7 it is usually going to be a ii-V7, so the parent scale would be a whole step below the ii chord.

On what basis do you choose to focus on those notes? I did notice the key center is about a step/whole step/unison away from the first chord name on each line. Is it based on your hearing that those sound good, or are you taking a theoretical approach on this?

[bigboy_78]

Originally Posted by Papa Dangerous

On what basis do you choose to focus on those notes? I did notice the key center is about a step/whole step/unison away from the first chord name on each line. Is it based on your hearing that those sound good, or are you taking a theoretical approach on this?

Focus on which notes?

[Papa Dangerous]

The notes that were chosen as the key center. Like, from the C Maj to Dmin, the focus was said to be C. I can assume this because it looks like it is probably in the key of C, but for the rest of the relationships, why was each "= 'C' (or whatever)" chosen?

[bigboy_78]

Based on the chords that each scale can create. You can’t build A7 from the notes in a C maj scale, so we look for a scale that we can. A7 can only come from D (we need a C# and a natural G), but in this case as Groove Master pointed out it is more likely to have come from D harmonic minor than Dmajor.

Mainly in something like this you are looking for the common cliché progressions ( ii-V-I, I-vi-ii-V etc) and then working out which key they are in.

[Papa Dangerous]

ahh okay. I see what ya did. So when you have those type of chord groupings, just figure out the scale that is shared with those chords and you can pretty much just play anything in the scale during that duration, right?

[FretlessMainly]

Originally Posted by Groove Master

Even if most the suggestions are good from the 2nd post, i would put a warning on the Emin7-A7 that doesn't resolve to the D maj but to D minor instead. This means that the F# is not really there in the harmony and your diatonic choice could be a E Phrygian from the chord preceding and play a D minor melodic scale over the A7 to keep all the diatonic notes as much as possible to C major. In fact, the only note you change from the C major scale on the A7 in this situation is........C that you substitute by a C# and therefore gives you the fifth mode of the D minor melodic scale.

The other possibility that is more used would be to altered the Emin-A7 by the real ii-v in a minor key which is Emin7(b5)- A7(b9). Then you should play the D minor harmonic scale over the ii-v and bring in the Bb in your solo which is the first Blue note (b7) to appear in the key of C Major.

The |Cmaj7 Dm7|Em7 A7|Dm7|G7|

is probably best thought of as as |I II| ii v of | II | V| of C Major. Yes, the A7 is not diatonic to CMajor, so in most jazz tunes, the E-7 is not either, as it is linked to the A7. So choosing the D harmonic minor over E-7 A7 is one way to go (but it depends on how the rest of the band interprets E-7 A7 and D harmonic Major has a Bb, not a B natuiral). The A7 is a secondary dominant - a Dom7 chord that is not in the main key, but resolves to a chord diatonic to the key (typically a min7 chord - often the II of the tonic).

I would also agree that the E-7 is better thought of as an E-7(b5). So the first stanza becomes:

|Cmaj7 Dm7|Em7(b5) A7|Dm7|G7|

that way, the Em7(b5) A7 is a true resolution to Dmin (and you can the use the D harmonic minor over the entire E-7 A7) - but the trouble arises when the D-7 chord is thought of as a II chord in CMajor - again, it depends on when the rest of the band decides to change key (or, said better, select voicings that reflect one key over another) - is it at the bar line, or in mid-bar? You could it it either way (sometimes both work on bass despite what the rest of the band is doing!). In general, adding a b5 over a Dom7 chord or a minor7 chord is cool from the bass. Unless some other specific arrangement is going on the from the keys or the guitar/orchestra, etc.

These sorts of nuances are why jazz has been described as "the sound of surprise." I had the luxury of playing double bass in a jazz piano trio for a pianist who often omitted the root and the 5th in favor of the appropriate 9th and 6th, respectively. That opened up nearly endless ways that I could interpret chords.

[longfinger]

Originally Posted by bassdog

I am trying to learn about improvising based on key centers. Can anybody help me determine the various key centers in the follow chord progression:

Cmaj7 Dm7|Em7 A7|Dm7|G7|
Cmaj7 Fmaj7|Em7 A7|Gm7|C7|
Fmaj7 Dm7|Gm7 C7|Fmaj7|Fm7 Bb7|
Ebmaj7|Ebmaj7|Dm7|G7|

Thanks!!!!!!!!

Bassdog

Here's a suggestion...


Cmaj7 Dm7|Em7 A7|Dm7|G7|
Cmaj7 Fmaj7|Em7 A7|

*all that was in C major, with a couple of C# colour notes.



.....................|Gm7|C7|
Fmaj7 Dm7|Gm7 C7|Fmaj7

*That's all in F major


............|Fm7 Bb7|
Ebmaj7|Ebmaj7|

*In Eb major


Dm7|G7|

*going back to back in C major


With key centers, it helps to keep as many chords as aurally possible within the same key center. With the above, the key centers of C major, F major and Eb major cover it all pretty well.

[Papa Dangerous]

Originally Posted by FretlessMainly

The |Cmaj7 Dm7|Em7 A7|Dm7|G7|

is probably best thought of as as |I II| ii v of | II | V| of C Major. Yes, the A7 is not diatonic to CMajor, so in most jazz tunes, the E-7 is not either, as it is linked to the A7. So choosing the D harmonic minor over E-7 A7 is one way to go (but it depends on how the rest of the band interprets E-7 A7 and D harmonic Major has a Bb, not a B natuiral). The A7 is a secondary dominant - a Dom7 chord that is not in the main key, but resolves to a chord diatonic to the key (typically a min7 chord - often the II of the tonic).

I would also agree that the E-7 is better thought of as an E-7(b5). So the first stanza becomes:

|Cmaj7 Dm7|Em7(b5) A7|Dm7|G7|

that way, the Em7(b5) A7 is a true resolution to Dmin (and you can the use the D harmonic minor over the entire E-7 A7) - but the trouble arises when the D-7 chord is thought of as a II chord in CMajor - again, it depends on when the rest of the band decides to change key (or, said better, select voicings that reflect one key over another) - is it at the bar line, or in mid-bar? You could it it either way (sometimes both work on bass despite what the rest of the band is doing!). In general, adding a b5 over a Dom7 chord or a minor7 chord is cool from the bass. Unless some other specific arrangement is going on the from the keys or the guitar/orchestra, etc.

These sorts of nuances are why jazz has been described as "the sound of surprise." I had the luxury of playing double bass in a jazz piano trio for a pianist who often omitted the root and the 5th in favor of the appropriate 9th and 6th, respectively. That opened up nearly endless ways that I could interpret chords.

I have a decent understanding of theory... But that is the stuff that just blows my mind!

[suraci]

This is such a frustrating topic analysis of harmony

Gosh every chord is found in a standard type of tune.
To me, ALL those chords are part of C major. Keep it simple

[bassdog]

Wow. I wonder what Ed Friedland would say. This chord progression is his track 14 from Bass Improvisation where he talks about key center soloing. Looks like the only issue is measure two.

Bd

[FretlessMainly]

Yes, bar two is the "problem spot," but it really shouldn't be. Notwithstanding all I worte above, if you play it as written, you should probably use a D Major scale over E-7 A7, because it doesn't resolve to the tonality of D minor, it resolves to a D-7 functioning as a II chord in C Major. So, you need that B natural if you're group is trying to present that D-7 as a II chord feel in bar two.

[suraci]

I didn't mean to be flip. I play piano since I was a kid, I take harmony for granted I guess. Not that I am in the company of Andy LaVerne, Herbie Hancock etc. But we are not talking that level are we?
I differ with some of my past teachers and apparently many musicians about harmony.
I like the idea of monotonality that I gleaned from Theory of Harmony by A Schoenberg.
This "V of ii of 69" stuff is SOOO complicating.
The ideas behind that complicated stuff are not stupid, but they seem to get in the way of playing music.
To me most standards are in one key, with a few brief and TEMPORARY modulations but essentially the song is in ONE key.

Unfortunately Theory of Harmony involves Schoenberg going into philosophical idea about music... not the easist book. But with all the trappings of his theories, he ends up speaking about MONOtonality.
There is NO substitute for spending a great amount of time studying music.

edit I see that back in 2001 Chris F was talking about a similar point I am trying to make- these theories are not practical when one is playing jazz.

[suraci]

Originally Posted by FretlessMainly

Yes, bar two is the "problem spot," but it really shouldn't be. Notwithstanding all I worte above, if you play it as written, you should probably use a D Major scale over E-7 A7, because it doesn't resolve to the tonality of D minor, it resolves to a D-7 functioning as a II chord in C Major. So, you need that B natural if you're group is trying to present that D-7 as a II chord feel in bar two.

Those chords reminded me among other things, of Satin Doll
in C
Em7 A7 is iii to Vi in the KEY of C
just because there is an F# does not mean we are IN D major or Dminor even

a ii chord in C is what I hear

How are we going to solo cohesively if our minds are filled with all these keys? I very much differ with this common theory. I understand it, but do not think it serves the soloist.

You CAN have an F# IN KEY OF C, No?

[suraci]

Originally Posted by bigboy_78

I've just added in the numerals so we can see the pattern. Usually when there is a m7 followed by a dom7 it is usually going to be a ii-V7, so the parent scale would be a whole step below the ii chord.

I can't believe that people use ii V all day long, including leap years, eclipses of Moon and sun and Pluto

but iii ? oh that's not iii that's ii.

And though IV is major like I that REALLY ISN"T IV it is a new I
In other words the common chord progression in C when Gm7 goes to C7 to F
F is viewed as a new I instead of a IV of C

It amazes me.

edit This simpler music being discussed here, is "Blues based", in this sense, the composers were living through a Blues influence and it is easy to hear in much of this music. It is also easy to superimpose a Blue line atop these chords. If you view this music as multiple key center music. you distance yourself from the heart of the Blues contained in the music. Listen to improvisors of the 40's and early 50's Blues licks were popping out all over the place ( within the Form ) because this music was perceived with that unifying UNI Fying feeling of blues.
To me that means One key Center with only colorful departures, but always quickly back Home again.