Key is eluding me???

[Jamasaurus]

Got a quick question to all of you out there who know your theory better than I(I have very limited knowledge).

Just learned a song today and was wondering what key the song is in and what scale to use over it.

The song is out of some form of Fmaj, I think.

It contains the chords of F, Gmin, G#, Amin, Bb, C, Dmin.

The Amin is what is throwing me off. What key is this? Thanks.

(The song is Divide by Passafire, it has a sweet slap line too)

[Swift713]

I'm not familiar with the song, or the group, but it's probably the G# (or Ab?) that's the odd chord. It's very common to see a major chord based on a flattened 3rd step in an otherwise major key tune. The "rules" of harmony are only rough guidelines.
You might experiment with a little F minor scale with a major 6th for improv.

[Jamasaurus]

Could it be out of Dmin with that G# being the odd chord? I think that would work.

[MonetBass]

Just from first glance I'd say F Maj. F (I), g min (ii), G# (likely a passing chord to a min, unless it's really an E with G# in the bass, then it's a V of iii, a min), a min (iii), Bb (IV), C (V), d min (vi). So, excluding the G# you have one flat (Bb), so that would be F Maj.

Doubtful it's d min since that would make the A chord Maj.

[Jamasaurus]

I'm pretty sure the same chords are played by the guitar as well. You can check the song out here if you want http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPwWd26pv4I

Its a live recording but you still get the general idea.

[BassChuck]

With the exception of the 'G#' chord all of them belong in the key of F major. Don't get too hung up of scales. Your example is fairly clear, but a lot of songs are built not on major scales but on penatonic scales of some kind or another, or blues scales. Generally, if you have to, you can explain most songs as major (kinda) or minor (kinda).

Chameleon (Herbie Hancock) is a fun example. It's in Ab, but there is rarely an Ab chord, its all Bbm7 and Eb7.... (ii7 to V7).

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by BassChuck

Chameleon (Herbie Hancock) is a fun example. It's in Ab, but there is rarely an Ab chord, its all Bbm7 and Eb7.... (ii7 to V7).

If Ab is not functioning as the tonic, which unless memory fails me it's not, the tune is not in Ab.

It's not just the number of flats or sharps that determine the key/mode, it's the note that works as the tonal center.

[Implosion]

I would play along d min (natural). But I prefer music that's in minor over music that's in major

Originally Posted by MonetBass

Doubtful it's d min since that would make the A chord Maj.

Natural instead of harmonic, perhaps? As in scale-wise. My theory knowledge is a little off so I'm not sure with these. But isn't the difference with with natural and harmonic in the the seventh that is raised (sharp) in the harmonic? So in the natural d min it woudln't be an A maj but an A min?

[BassChuck]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

If Ab is not functioning as the tonic, which unless memory fails me it's not, the tune is not in Ab.

It's not just the number of flats or sharps that determine the key/mode, it's the note that works as the tonal center.

OK. But if a tune consists totally of Bbm7 and Eb7 what would the tonic center be? It would seem unlikely that a tonic chord could be presented in the form of a dominat 7th (in the case of Eb as tonic), and if the two chords work as a ii7 to V7 relationship (and they would not have that relationship if there wasn't at least an implied tonic) then calling Ab tonic would work, even it you don't ever have that chord.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by BassChuck

OK. But if a tune consists totally of Bbm7 and Eb7 what would the tonic center be? It would seem unlikely that a tonic chord could be presented in the form of a dominat 7th (in the case of Eb as tonic), and if the two chords work as a ii7 to V7 relationship (and they would not have that relationship if there wasn't at least an implied tonic) then calling Ab tonic would work, even it you don't ever have that chord.

If you don't ever have Ab actually doing work as a tonic, then no, Ab would not work as the key. "Implied" only gets you so far--you can't imply a tonic throughout a 10 minute piece, without ever stating it, and expect the implication to be understood. There's no dominant function if the "dominant" never resolves the way dominants do.

I don't concede that the two chords necessarily have a ii7-V7 relationship, either. They would if they were in Ab major, but that's begging the question, because there's no reason to believe they're in Ab, in the absence of any Ab tonic. Those two chords don't have an absolute relationship of the sort you describe without a context that clarifies that relationship. Take the two chords C and F: is that a I-IV in C, or is it a V-I in F? You don't know without context.

This kind of thing is where you run into the limits of trying to shoehorn everything into a strict conventional major-or-minor-key format. A lot of music just doesn't work like that--at least, not perfectly, and not all the time. Yes, you CAN have a 7th chord as the tonic (though I don't think that Eb7 is the tonic in this example). The blues is BUILT on that principle!

You'd probably get further thinking of that vamp as being fundamentally in Bb dorian, making Bb the tonal center. Though of course Herbie and crew are not limiting themselves to this with any great stringency. (This does NOT mean that this bit is "really" in Ab, even if Bb dorian is often--rather misleadingly IMO--referred to as the 2nd mode of Ab major. There is no functioning Ab tonic, hence there can be no Ab key.) Modalities can be, and often are, "keys" (or key-like harmonic organizing systems, if you want to reserve "key" for major and minor) of their own. They don't need to be chained to some putative major or minor scale of origin.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Great post Richard - I think people need to stop being obsessed with this question about what the key is and just play the chords!!

[MonetBass]

Originally Posted by Implosion

Natural instead of harmonic, perhaps? As in scale-wise. My theory knowledge is a little off so I'm not sure with these. But isn't the difference with with natural and harmonic in the the seventh that is raised (sharp) in the harmonic? So in the natural d min it woudln't be an A maj but an A min?

You are correct in that the C would be natural in the natural minor scale. However in most cases the V of a key is going to be Major, regardless of whether the key is Major or minor. Play a i - iv - v progression and see how it sounds to your ear. That's not to say you couldn't play it that way, but that D really wants to move down to the C# when playing the V in the progression above.

Borrowed chords (in this case, an a min could be the ii of G or the vi of C) could work, depending on which chords you played after it. Is a true modulation or not?

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by Jamasaurus

It contains the chords of F, Gmin, G#, Amin, Bb, C, Dmin.

When picking the key it's more important to know how the chords are used, i.e, not necessarily what chords are contained in the song, but where they fall in the progression. A quick give-a-way is to see if all the verses end with the same chord, if so that's your key.

You are looking for the tonal center, again not necessarily the chords in or out of the key. I walked up the keyboard and the F (note) was where I wanted to stay. So you could be looking at F or Dm -- F's relative minor. Same notes same chords just depends on how they are used that determines the tonal center. Droning a Dm chord fit better than an F chord so Dm is my choice.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Yes -a chord could just be used quickly in passing between two others and make sense like that, without being in the same key!

[Johnny StingRay]

The G# could be a flat-5 substitute for Dm. G# (Ab) is the flat 5th of D.

For example in a typical I-vi-ii-V turnaround, jazzers sometimes play I-bIII-bVI-bII back to the I

Ok, Cmaj7-Am7-Dm7-G7 would be played Cmaj7-Eb7-Ab7-Db7 back to Cmaj7

Or, like others have already stated..............it's just a passing chord and the key is F major.

But that is a jazzers viewpoint.

[JimmyM]

When trying to figure out keys, you must always allow for accidentals, and as Richard says, don't get so hung up on stuffing every little thing into a box because it usually sacrifices clarity for the player.

BTW, I hate transcribers who denote a different key than the song is obviously played in. "Chameleon" is in Bb, no question about it. Writing it in Ab to accomodate the Bb7/Eb7 chord change is craziness, IMHO, and signifies theory taken too far for one's own good

[Munjibunga]

Well you sure brought out the theorists with this one. It's in F. We're done here.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

Well you sure brought out the theorists with this one. It's in F. We're done here.

Agreed. Munji has the high TB post count to establish his credibility. And even if he didn't, it's still in F.

[seanm]

Since that is solved, next question.....

What key is "Start me up" by the Rolling Stones in?

[JimmyM]

C.