In the key of...huh?

[Brick Top]

Sorry if this is a question that I should already have the answer for....but I haven't figured it out yet.

I have just started learning the bass...and along with playing some songs to make practice more fun...I have been trying to learn theory.

My question is....how do I determine where on the fretboard I should be in when someone says " in the key of " C, Bb or whatever?

Cheers,
BT

[rarisgod]

Have you learned the notes of the fretboard yet?

If not, it's quite important, and this might be what you're asking.

If so, then I presume you're asking about how to know what scales and whatnot to play in, in which case I will leave it to someone who can explain it better than I can.

[Jake of Bass]

1. Learn the notes on your fretboard, preferably up to the 12th fret (they repeat themselves afterwards - the 12th fret notes are the same +one octave as your open string notes, the 13th fret notes are the same + one octave as your first fret notes, etc.)

2. Learn the major scale, easiest to start in C as it has no sharps or flats.

3. Study this scale and learn about intervals, and how they construct the major scale.

4. Learn the scale in a different key, but using the same intervals (ie. start on a different note (in this case G) and play the same scale with the same intervals or pattern of notes). It should sound the same, but in a different key.


Hope that helps.

[tranceFusion]

Originally Posted by Brick Top

My question is....how do I determine where on the fretboard I should be in when someone says " in the key of " C, Bb or whatever?

Making a very broad generalization, if someone says to play in the Key of C, you can play anything in the C Major scale without making a musical fart.

For C Major, that is C, D, E, F, G, A, B. You will notice that is 7 of the 12 possible notes (the others being C#, D#, F#, G#, A#, also known as Db, Eb, Gb, Ab, Bb). You should notice that if a note doesn't sound right, you can always move up or down one note to find one that does!

There are, of course, certain notes that sound more right than others. As a bass player you generally want to outline the tones of the chords being played by the other instruments. Certain types of music use "wrong" notes to create a certain sound (blues for example). There are also many types of music which don't follow these ideas at all.

[Stumbo]

Introduction to Scale and Chord Theory Intro to scale and chord theory

[ChiefLongDong]

Bass guitar for dummies book is actually quite cool... and covers this topic.

Also Hal Leonard Bass Method teaches you the notes on the fretboard, and how to read them off the bass clef... its great as well.

[Methodis]

I'm actually reading Bass Guitar for Dummies right now lol and you're totally right. There's a section called "What to play for what key" or something to that tune and talks about some groove skeletons and the like. VERY usefull.

[Brick Top]

Thanks everyone. So I guess I was over thinking it. I understand the notes on the fretboard...and I know about the chords...I just didn't realize the chord names and key were basically the same thing.

Shouldn't I be more concerned with learning the chords as opposed to the scales? I use the scales for practice mostly for finger exercise and tone recognition.

Cheers,
BT

[Howlin' Hanson]

It's important to know the notes of each type of chord, because you will build your patterns around them, but if you learn the scales you should come away with the knowledge you need as well.

Us old school guys don't play alot of chords on our basses, but I sometimes play two notes at once, and I want them to fit in the chord the rest of the band is playing.

Our rhythm player doesn't have much theory background, and if the band leader says "Key of D," he thinks that D will be the first chord. It often may be the last chord of the song, but doesn't have to be the starting chord.

[HelloJerk]

This is going to repeat a lot of stuff that has been already stated in order to stress certain information.

Know your fret board -- that is the most important information I can give. Know your chord voicings (especially roots, fifths, major thirds, and minor thirds, but also sevenths and major sevenths) not necessarily in order to play chords, but so you know what is appropriate to play under chords. Know your major and minor pentatonic patterns for noodling and funkafying and soloing and such.

These things will provide you with a good foundation so that when someone says lets jam in the key of C or Bb or whatever, you will be able.

[Methodis]

What did you guys use to remember the notes? It's the hardest thing for me for some reason. Scales, modes, cake, but notes? I just get so lost with the sharps/flats

[HelloJerk]

Originally Posted by Methodis

What did you guys use to remember the notes?

Do you mean, how can one remember the notes on the fretboard? I dunno. I guess there are a few tricks. You could say the notes as you play them. But thinking about it over time was the key for me.

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by Brick Top

Sorry if this is a question that I should already have the answer for....but I haven't figured it out yet.

I have just started learning the bass...and along with playing some songs to make practice more fun...I have been trying to learn theory.

My question is....how do I determine where on the fretboard I should be in when someone says " in the key of " C, Bb or whatever?

Cheers,
BT

The answer to this is "It Depends". You playing a bass line, need to do fills, soloing, sightreading, what timbre do you want, and so on. The sweet spot on a bass is the first five frets, but do you know how to play in all 12 keys within the first five frets? So your knowledge and technique come into the decision making. The answer to this question changes with your experience and what you are doing.

[Stumbo]

Take a look at this:
Circle of Fifths Question

Also, check out the link in my sig. Lots of great info there.

[lbwdog]

OK, here's a question that nobody has asked....Do you have any musical training or play any other instruments? Or are you learning it all from scratch? If it's the latter, I recommend a good teacher, but not just any guy who gives bass lessons in the back of a music store. I've seen a lot of cases where the instructor is just the local guitar or bass hero that knows a lot of hot licks but no theory.

Basic music theory is very important IMHO, for someone who is starting from scratch. That is how you learn the answers to your original questions! It might seem boring when you're anxious to start ripping out some serious playing, but the fundamentals are sooooooo important.

I was fortunate to have taken piano at eight years of age, then sax in junior high. Somewhere around that time, I developed a lust for guitar then bass, so I was already acquainted with fundamentals and the rest came naturally.

Over the years, I've been asked to teach many times and the few times I agreed, I was compelled to start the lessons with fundamentals of music. This was boring to my students as they all just wanted to know "How did you play that lick on this record,etc." I felt I should share the whys and wherefores of music before we even picked up a bass. That's when I stopped giving lessons!!

So, get a good teacher, all the self help music books you can find, train your ear, and try playing with some friends that can share some knowledge with you....good luck!!

[Brick Top]

Originally Posted by lbwdog

OK, here's a question that nobody has asked....Do you have any musical training or play any other instruments? Or are you learning it all from scratch? If it's the latter, I recommend a good teacher, but not just any guy who gives bass lessons in the back of a music store. I've seen a lot of cases where the instructor is just the local guitar or bass hero that knows a lot of hot licks but no theory.

Basic music theory is very important IMHO, for someone who is starting from scratch. That is how you learn the answers to your original questions! It might seem boring when you're anxious to start ripping out some serious playing, but the fundamentals are sooooooo important.

I was fortunate to have taken piano at eight years of age, then sax in junior high. Somewhere around that time, I developed a lust for guitar then bass, so I was already acquainted with fundamentals and the rest came naturally.

Over the years, I've been asked to teach many times and the few times I agreed, I was compelled to start the lessons with fundamentals of music. This was boring to my students as they all just wanted to know "How did you play that lick on this record,etc." I felt I should share the whys and wherefores of music before we even picked up a bass. That's when I stopped giving lessons!!

So, get a good teacher, all the self help music books you can find, train your ear, and try playing with some friends that can share some knowledge with you....good luck!!

Thanks! I am completely self taught. I am trying to learn theory as well as playing the bass at the same time. I live on a cow path in the north...so... not alot of options up here for teachers. Most musicians that I play around with locally have less theory knowledge than I do...and I've only been studying for about 3 months.

Cheers,
BT

[JTE]

Originally Posted by Brick Top

Thanks everyone. So I guess I was over thinking it. I understand the notes on the fretboard...and I know about the chords...I just didn't realize the chord names and key were basically the same thing.

Shouldn't I be more concerned with learning the chords as opposed to the scales? I use the scales for practice mostly for finger exercise and tone recognition.

Cheers,
BT

Here's what I think. First you gotta own the major scale. That means you know:

1. What W W H W W W H is.
2. That the key of C has no sharps or flats.
3. Therefore, from 1 and 2, you KNOW that there's a half step between E and F and one between B and C. All others have a whole step between them. [Edited to correct the half step between E and F]

From that you can figure out the notes in any diatonic major scale. After that then you need to know chords and how they are built. The first bit is to know how to construct the basic chords from any diatonic major scale. You need to know things like:

1. A major chord is 1, 3, 5
2. Minor is 1, b3, 5
3. 7th chord is 1, 3, 5, b7 (technically a dominant 7, but most frequently called merely "seventh")
4. Augmented is 1, 3, #5
5. Diminished is 1, b3, b5, bb7 (yep, double flat- which is the same enharmonic note as the 6th, but your life is a lot easier if you start thinking of it right from the start with the correct names).

From that you can get to the heart of what the bass needs to do. Your job is to connect the rhythm with the harmonic and melodic aspects of the music AND to define the harmony.

From this basic information, if you see that a song has D, G, and C chords, it's most likely in the key of G because that scale (G A B C D E F#) gives you those three chords (which are D F# A, G B D, and C E G. Not always, of course, but it's a good bet. And the point is that you'll know that the D chord has F# instead of F natural because that'd be a Dmin. BTW, don't trust me on this- take a pencil and paper and work it all out so you KNOW it!

Now if you know the chords have the notes D F# A, G B D, and C E G, you'll have a really good platform for finding the notes that both support the individual chords and for finding the notes to connect one chord to the next.

BTW, it's a lot easier to do, see, hear, and understand on a bass than it is do write it all out!
jte

[Mazatleco17]

Originally Posted by Methodis

I'm actually reading Bass Guitar for Dummies right now lol and you're totally right. There's a section called "What to play for what key" or something to that tune and talks about some groove skeletons and the like. VERY usefull.

Where? What page?

[Brick Top]

Originally Posted by JTE

Here's what I think. First you gotta own the major scale. That means you know:

1. What W W H W W W H is.
2. That the key of C has no sharps or flats.
3. Therefore, from 1 and 2, you KNOW that there's a half step between F and G and one between B and C. All others have a whole step between them.

From that you can figure out the notes in any diatonic major scale. After that then you need to know chords and how they are built. The first bit is to know how to construct the basic chords from any diatonic major scale. You need to know things like:

1. A major chord is 1, 3, 5
2. Minor is 1, b3, 5
3. 7th chord is 1, 3, 5, b7 (technically a dominant 7, but most frequently called merely "seventh")
4. Augmented is 1, 3, #5
5. Diminished is 1, b3, b5, bb7 (yep, double flat- which is the same enharmonic note as the 6th, but your life is a lot easier if you start thinking of it right from the start with the correct names).

From that you can get to the heart of what the bass needs to do. Your job is to connect the rhythm with the harmonic and melodic aspects of the music AND to define the harmony.

From this basic information, if you see that a song has D, G, and C chords, it's most likely in the key of G because that scale (G A B C D E F#) gives you those three chords (which are D F# A, G B D, and C E G. Not always, of course, but it's a good bet. And the point is that you'll know that the D chord has F# instead of F natural because that'd be a Dmin. BTW, don't trust me on this- take a pencil and paper and work it all out so you KNOW it!

Now if you know the chords have the notes D F# A, G B D, and C E G, you'll have a really good platform for finding the notes that both support the individual chords and for finding the notes to connect one chord to the next.

BTW, it's a lot easier to do, see, hear, and understand on a bass than it is do write it all out!
jte

Thanks man. I have learned a bit more lately, regarding this...and your post made things even clearer. The only problem I am still having is know how to implement those chords under the guitar. But I know that will come with time.

Cheers,
BT

[JTE]

Well, if you know the chord tones, and you know what the important notes are (mostly 1 and 5) as your targets, then start with just those. That'll get you into defining the harmony and then let your ears guide you for the other notes. A classic basic walking bass line hits the 1 and 5 on the two strong beats of a measure of 4 (That's one and three) and plays other notes in between. Your basic boogie line ( 1 3 5 6 octave 6 5 3) has exactly that.

jte