Is the Key Minor or Major?

thebassclef · #1 08-07-2006, 12:49 AM

O.K. I am trying to teach myself how to read standard notation. I have a question about key signatures. Let's say, for example, that the key signature has 3 flats. Is the key Eb Major, or is it C minor? Or does it really matter? I know that C is the 3rd of Eb Major, and that Eb is the third of C minor, and that they coexist that way because of modes. But, when trying to read music notation, which one is it?

Yahshua · #2 08-07-2006, 01:04 AM

The key signature is Eb Major or Cmin. You had posted that "C is the 3rd of Eb Major". It actually isnt. G is the 3rd of EbMajor. C is the 6th of Eb Major or Its natural minor. The natural minor will always have the same amount of flats or sharps as its parent major. I hope this helps.

thebassclef · #3 08-07-2006, 01:17 AM

oops, mistyped. My head hurts trying to figure this stuff out on my own.

So, It doesn't matter, it's both?

BTW, Welcome to the TB.

Zebra · #4 08-07-2006, 01:58 AM

Key signature will tell you where you are on the circle of fifths, but it won't tell you if you're in so-and-so major or its relative minor. Key signatures, depending on what you're playing, can sometimes decieve you, so it's best not to rely on them FYI.

dlloyd · #5 08-07-2006, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thebassclef

O.K. I am trying to teach myself how to read standard notation. I have a question about key signatures. Let's say, for example, that the key signature has 3 flats. Is the key Eb Major, or is it C minor? Or does it really matter? I know that C is the 3rd of Eb Major, and that Eb is the third of C minor, and that they coexist that way because of modes. But, when trying to read music notation, which one is it?

Just a quick correction there, C is the major sixth of Eb, a minor third down from the octave C.

The clues as to whether the key is major or minor will be in the music itself. If it's in C minor, the music will tend to resolve to a C minor chord. If it's in Eb major, it will tend to resolve to an Eb major chord.

Brian S · #6 08-07-2006, 06:03 AM

A good example is "Blue Bossa". The key signature shows 3 flats (Eb), but the first chord is Cm7 and the tune ends on Cm7, so I would say that "Blue Bossa" is in the key of Cm.

Audiophage · #7 08-07-2006, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlloyd

Just a quick correction there, C is the major sixth of Eb, a minor third down from the octave C.

You could just say that C is a Minor Third down from any Eb. You've really got to think of notes and scales as one big continuum and not just finger positions on your fretboard. C Minor and Eb Major are the same key, and they can be used interchangeably.

I-Love-Ratm · #8 08-07-2006, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlloyd

The clues as to whether the key is major or minor will be in the music itself. If it's in C minor, the music will tend to resolve to a C minor chord. If it's in Eb major, it will tend to resolve to an Eb major chord.

That is correct and also the first and last notes of the music may be in the key it's in.

Bassist4Life · #9 08-07-2006, 07:37 AM

It might be C minor.
It might be Eb major.
It might be both.
There may be modulations (key changes) within the piece of music.

This is not a "rule", but 9 times out of 10, the last note in the piece will tell you the key.

What are some of the chords that you see in the music? You have to figure out the key in its context.

Joe

Jon Simonoff · #10 08-07-2006, 08:01 AM

another sign could be accidentals. If you see a lot of B naturals you probably are in Cmin as B is the leading tone and Bb doesn't work as a leading tone.

BassChuck · #11 08-07-2006, 08:02 AM

The key signature just tells you what notes are sharped or flatted. Since a good bit of western music is in major we generally call the key sigs. by their major names, so if you ask a musician what key 3 flats is, they'll usually answer Eb. If it happens to be in a minor key the tonic note, most important note would be C, in this case. Checking the last note or chord is a fairly good indication of the key.

Of course 3 flats could be F Dorian or G Phrygian (the list could go on....). One thing you won't (or shouldn't see) are sharps and flats in the same key signature. Some students will try that in the case of minor keys (Harmonic or melodic form), but it isn't formally proper.

Good luck with your studies, keep asking questions.

dlloyd · #12 08-07-2006, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Audiophage

You could just say that C is a Minor Third down from any Eb. You've really got to think of notes and scales as one big continuum and not just finger positions on your fretboard.

Thanks for the tip.

Quote:

C Minor and Eb Major are the same key, and they can be used interchangeably.

No they are not, and no they cannot. Minor key harmony is often very different from major key harmony.

Bassist4Life · #13 08-07-2006, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Simonoff

another sign could be accidentals. If you see a lot of B naturals you probably are in Cmin as B is the leading tone and Bb doesn't work as a leading tone.

This is true, but I think that it's more prevalent in "classical" theory.

Joe

sk8terguy316 · #14 08-07-2006, 10:27 AM

Basically you shouldn't rely on them because it could be in

F Dorian,G Phrygian, Ab Lydian, Bb Mixolydian,C Aeolian(Minor), or D Locrian they are all just variations of the same thing but playing D locrian will sound MUCH different from Eb major what they are reliable for is ifd you want to make a song "your own" add on stuff or extend the end or middle of it with solos/jams you can know what to play in. so you can solo/play in any of the scales I just posted above and plus it's fun watching guitarist watch your hands at the G spot playin a dorian when you told them to play in C minor they get confused because it's not c minor but it sound right oso sometimes they'll say "hey that's not C minor" or "your not in key" but remember you are have fun with it

TL5 · #15 08-07-2006, 10:44 AM

Interesting.

I do rely on a key signature because of what it does tell me not what it omitts.

On a typical 'Nashville style' chart, the key sig is almost ALWAYS major. Even if the song is played in the minor.
A minor I, IV, V would be charted as a major 6-, 2-, 3-.

thebassclef · #16 08-07-2006, 12:11 PM

Lot's of great info here. as far as the key being in different modes, wouldn't that also be determined by the notes on the score itself? I was under the impression that key signature (Especially for bass) was to help in placement of the mode. If , like in the example I gave, the key is c minor, it would be played in a diferent position than Eb Major. I know the notes would be the same in either respect, but wouldn't it help to know which it was to determine Where to play it in terms of mode.

So, if the last note is c, typically, the key would be C minor, right?

steveb98 · #17 08-07-2006, 01:33 PM

The key signature only tells you the starting key. If like many (Jazz and standards) tunes you are moving into other key centers all the time. For you basic question I would say look for the V chord that should tell you what key major or minor you're in.

dougjwray · #18 08-07-2006, 01:39 PM

Not to be annoying, but... use your ears. Major and minor sound... different. Or are you asking this from a purely theoretical, analytical standpoint? As in: doing music school homework that requires you to determine a key center by only looking at the music on paper?
I don't get it...

TL5 · #19 08-07-2006, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlloyd

Quote:

C Minor and Eb Major are the same key, and they can be used interchangeably.

No they are not, and no they cannot. Minor key harmony is often very different from major key harmony.

As it applies to the initial question, Which was, "Let's say, for example, that the key signature has 3 flats. Is the key Eb Major, or is it C minor?"
The answer is it could be either. Eb Major and Cminor share the same written key signature.

dougjwray, I don't think your comment was/is annoying. However, there are times when, "Use your ears" is a time waster. When presented with a chart and limited to no rehearsal time, there's no opportunity to simply sit and listen to the song in advance. The band leader passes out a chart, notes the changes (variations from the chart) that will be played, then counts off the first (maybe the only) run through. Often, for rehearsal we only run through the beginning/intro, ending and any stops or variations. We'll play 8 to 10 songs with only 45minutes-hour of rehearsal and it is expected to sound 'professional'. Just use your ears means that the time spent deciphering whether the song is major/minor would waste the time of the other players.

Bassist4Life · #20 08-07-2006, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thebassclef

I was under the impression that key signature (Especially for bass) was to help in placement of the mode. If , like in the example I gave, the key is c minor, it would be played in a diferent position than Eb Major. I know the notes would be the same in either respect, but wouldn't it help to know which it was to determine Where to play it in terms of mode.

So, if the last note is c, typically, the key would be C minor, right?

Key signatures are not specific to bass. They don't tell you which position to play the notes on your bass. They only tell you which notes are flat or sharp in the given key. In general; when you see a key signature, it's going to be major or minor. Don't get all hung up on different modes...

If the last note is C and there are 3 flats in the key signature, the key is probably C minor (9 times out of 10). There may be a whole bunch of other stuff going on in the music concerning keys, but don't get hung-up on that right now. Let's keep things simple.

What is the song you are looking at?

Joe