Key signature confusion: Pink Floyd - Speak to me (Breathe In The Air)

[Matthew_84]

Hi all,

I began to read through a Dark Side of the Moon Songbook, and right away got confused. I was trying to study the chords to help me understand theory better. First I read the key signature, which is just one sharp symbol, so I thought it was in the key of E minor or maybe G major, A dorian, B phrygian, etc... Then I read the first chord, E minor. Great I thought, "the song is in the key of E minor".

But then the next chord is an A major. How can this be? There are no C sharps in this scale at all. I thought maybe it was an E dorian, but realized that the key signature would then have to be two sharps, like a D major, and later in the song the progression moves into Cmaj7, Bm7, Fmaj7 & G. How can you have a B, a C, and a C# one scale (unless it was a traditional Blues scale, but that couldn't have an E minor)? And if it was in the key of E minor then that Fmaj7 would have to be an F#maj7.

I thought I had a decent grip on theory, but clearly I don't. So any sort of an explanation would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Matt

[Schlyder]

It is not uncommon for songs to modulate into another key center over some of the chords within the song.
Once you learn a bit more, it will become clearer.

[Matthew_84]

Really? I didn't know that was done, ever. Maybe all of the information I had read so far neglected to tell the reader this believing that it would confuse them so early on (which it clearly does for me).

So it's an E minor key but modulates to an A major, and then modulates back and forth for most of the song?

LOL, I guess this was a difficult piece to start understanding chord progressions.

[AwkwardLoudness]

Originally Posted by Matthew_84

Hi all,

I began to read through a Dark Side of the Moon Songbook, and right away got confused. I was trying to study the chords to help me understand theory better. First I read the key signature, which is just one sharp symbol, so I thought it was in the key of E minor or maybe G major, A dorian, B phrygian, etc... Then I read the first chord, E minor. Great I thought, "the song is in the key of E minor".

Song keys are not always readily apparent in Western music, and sometimes, of course, songs will abruptly changes keys or more gradually drift from one key to another. Also, even if a song is in, say for example, the key of 'C', then there will likely be at least a few melody notes or notes in chordal structures that are sharp or flat. The 'key' of a song is often the best fit, not a perfect fit.

It's more important to understand the chords being played rather the mold that they fit.

I've played Pink Floyd's 'Breathe' on guitar and organ. The verse for the most part is Em9 (minor 9th) to A major + quick Asus4 back to A major then Em9. Although, sometimes Gilmour strums an Em7 instead of Em9. It's not incorrect to say that the verse is Em and A, but really it's a bit more complex and colorful than that.

The chorus: Cmaj7, Bm7, Fmaj7, G, D7#9, D7b9

[Matthew_84]

Or is it in E dorian, and then modulates at the segment where it goes through Cmaj7, Bm7, Fmaj7, G, D7#9, D7b9/Eb. But if this is true shouldn't the key signature be two sharps instead of one? Or does a key signature simple tell you the first three notes in the root's chord? Really confused here.

And what key has Cmaj7, Bm7, Fmaj7, G, D7#9, D7b9/Eb in it? The Cmaj7 & Bm7 would have to be a C Lydian, but the Fmaj7 would still have to be an F#, and it would in E dorian too, so does it modulate to another key?

Is there any rules, or maybe guidelines to these modulations?

Sorry, I know there's a lot of questions here... Any takers? Please???

[Matthew_84]

Okay... So I don't know, clearly I'm picking the wrong song to start this endeavor. This doesn't make any sense to me. I have Beatles, Led Zeppelin, and Rush songbooks too, any of these helpful or are they just as complicated?

Is there anything anyone can recommend to help build a proper understanding of chord modulations and progressions, etc.?

Many thanks,

Matt

[Schlyder]

Just keep working at studying theory. Don't get ahead of yourself... which is where you are finding yourself now. You have jumped ahead in the book so to speak.
Get a better understanding of theory and basic harmony, then the more complex harmony analysis will be easier to understand.

[Matthew_84]

Originally Posted by Schlyder

Just keep working at studying theory. Don't get ahead of yourself... which is where you are finding yourself now. You have jumped ahead in the book so to speak.
Get a better understanding of theory and basic harmony, then the more complex harmony analysis will be easier to understand.

Yeah, I think you're right. Is there any books or songs or anything you can recommend?

I have a basic understanding of chords, though I don't know more complex ones like Asus4, and I know the 7 modes. But I don't know enough about chord progressions, harmonies, and the more complicated stuff, which is where I found a lot of theory books that I've read don't dig deep enough into.

[AwkwardLoudness]

Originally Posted by Matthew_84

And what key has Cmaj7, Bm7, Fmaj7, G, D7#9, D7b9/Eb in it?

None. You have all 12 notes of the Western scale within that chord pattern. That progression will not comfortably fit any scale. It's a pattern that is remiscent of noodling jazz songs and keyboardist Rick Wright likely was behind it since he had a jazz background unlike the other Floyd members. Why does the key matter anyway? The members of Pink Floyd didn't wake up one day and say..."Hey, let's write a song E minor dorian phyregian whatever". They jammed the song that would later become 'Breathe' for hours at a time to create and develop the desired soundscape. They played the early iterations of the song at numberous live shows making changes along the way before even entering the studio to record it.

Keys are more useful in simpler forms of music: blues, country, straightforward 3 chord rock, etc.

Progressive stuff, fusion jazz, jam band, and avant-garde whatever styles often have blurry or non-existent keys. Don't sweat it.

Originally Posted by Matthew_84

This doesn't make any sense to me. I have Beatles, Led Zeppelin, and Rush songbooks too, any of these helpful or are they just as complicated?

Rush has by far the most technically complicated music among those bands.

The Beatles had some simple songs, and some complex ones. Strawberry Fields Forever is rather complex and the...uh...'key' drops a micro-tone after the first verse in the trasistion from recordings of Take 7 to those from Take 26. Many of their songs had key changes. 'Penny Lane' toward the end, 'Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds' toward the end, 'You Know My Name' multiple times, etc. 'Tomorrow Never Knows' is root in a 'C' drone and doesn't really have a chord structure.

Led Zeppelin is generally not so complex especially the blues songs from their early days.

In case you venture further, don't try too hard to analyze any Frank Zappa, Captain Beefheart, John Cage, or Indian Hindustani music (64 micro-tones) among other things. Just a kind warning. Your head would hurt. Mine would too if I tried.

Originally Posted by Matthew_84

I have a basic understanding of chords, though I don't know more complex ones like Asus4,

Asus4 is almost an A major except that the 4th note in the key is played rather than the 3rd. IOW, the 1st, 4th, and 5th notes in the key of A (A, D, E) are played instead of the 1st, 3rd, and 5th notes in the key (A, C#, E).

[slybass3000]

I haven't listen to the song closely but first of all, publishers rarely use the key signature of a mode when writing music down. It is put in the key signature of the major key or its relative minor. So, there are some good chance that the Pink Floyd song is in a dorian mode but the key signature of G/Eminor is used. No big deal. I think it makes sense to use that system because you are aware of the accidentals notes in the staff within the key.

[MalcolmAmos]

An interesting study is to take some of those songs and then analise why they do what they do.

Remember the rules are just guidelines. If it sounds good it is good. The songwriter is free to do what he thinks sounds good.

Yes some songs change keys, some chords change between major and minor at the songwriter's drop of a hat.

That is what makes it fun.

[Matthew_84]

True enough. It does make music more interesting when it doesn't follow the same path that a thousand songs have done before it. In my studying I've just been kind of told (or under the assumption) that a song in the key of E minor, would pretty much follow the E Aeolian scale, with maybe the odd chromatic note off. But when I read those chords, I was completely lost, especially with it actually being in E Dorian, but the Key Signature suggested otherwise.

I have always wondered about how accurate the Key Signature is and now I realize it's more of a guideine.

Thanks AkwardLoudness for explaining to me what an Asus4 is. That will certainly come in use.

This was a great lesson for me, but I do need to lower the bar a bit. I will likely start off with some Zeppelin and move into the Beatles, maybe tackle Pink Floyd again before going into Rush.

Is there any great theory books maybe even textbooks that would help me out? I'm thinking some sort of jazz book, but really anything that gets into this stuff would be hugely appreciated.

Thanks everyone!

[mambo4]

Originally Posted by Matthew_84

I have always wondered about how accurate the Key Signature is and now I realize it's more of a guideline.

Congratulations! you have just figured out what us theory geeks mean when we say "theory is NOT rules."

It's completely commonplace for rock bands to use the "wrong" chords in a progression, and it's nothing to sweat over.
Much of it goes back to the blues origins of jazz and rock, using dominant 7th chords all over the place, regardless of what the correct flavor of chord might be according to theory.

It's still useful to look at it as chord progression in E minor though.
The root of the chords is less commonly "wrong" .
A major is "wrong" for the key of E minor, but it still more or less functions at the IV chord of the key.

It may be tempting to try to pin down exactly what the theory is behind these substitutions and modulations, but at the end of the day the chances are the original composer just thought it sounded good.

[Matthew_84]

All very good points, thank you.

[berwick63]

Definitely just a "guideline" Almost all songs modulate out of the original key, as has been stated. In my opinion, those steps outside the key are what give "flavor" to the notes. To me, it's like, Okay, you got the pizza(the song), we'll cut it into 8 slices(the key signature), and hmm.. what toppings do we want? Lets make this one bold, with some pepperoni, jalapeno peppers and some hot sauce.. A pizza without the toppings is just plain. So is a song that sticks strictly to the key, in my personal opinion.

[HolmeBass]

The idea you're struggling with is that the chord structure of Breathe is not "diatonic", which means "of the scale". Not all chords in the song fit within the diatonic key center of Em (or G, if looking at the major scale modes). That's ok, it's part of what makes things sound unusual and interesting.

Simply employing a non-diatonic set of chords might not accurately be portrayed as "changing keys"- usually a key change is a noticeable change to a new diatonic key center. Breathe is just a jazzy romp through Em, although those bridge changes may indeed be a transition through a number of different keys.

I think it's good that you're noticing this, just don't let it bother you too much. I'd say your study is paying off well. Don't run from the Floyd, just compile observations and let them simmer.

[cheesypita]

When it comes to 4th and 5ths it's very common to use a major chord instead of the minor.

For example, think if those 1st 2 chords were reversed: so it's Amaj to Eminor

In this case we'll assume the song is in Amaj (as it's the 1st chord to start).

If we were following the principles of the major scale.. The E chord would be an Emajor (because the 5th of the key of A major is a major chord, thus major. Also because Amajor has a G# and not just a G which is what makes up an eminor chord.)

...but in this case it's we see the second chord is Eminor even though technically the song is in the key of A. This is because in western music the minor 5th (and minor 4th) is commonly substituted for the major 5th and creates a strong reinforcement for melody.

Let's look at another one that follows the exact same formula of what you originally posted (the minor 4th substitute.


Let's make it easy and say this theoretical song is in the key of C major. I'm going to go ahead and make up a verse and then I'm gonna make a chorus using the minor 4th; just like the pink Floyd song.

**play the melody with an instrent so u can hear the reinforcement of the melody

Verse: C major Aminor Fmajor Gmajor 2x

(Now a chorus using the MINOR 4TH of C major)

Chorus Cmajor F minor C major F minor

See? Even though we are in the key of C major we see the use of the 4th chord as a minor instead of a major (F minor).

These are just common song writing tricks That make the music interesting. We call these added notes accidentals, and without accidentals music would be boring. I suggest you study some beatles tunes for a better grip on song craft.


I hope this helped and was readable, it was all typed on my iPhone.

[Matthew_84]

It is understandable and readable and I thank you very much for this. Tomorrow I will pull out my keyboard and play the progressions you have listed. Thanks again

[JimmyM]

Key signatures are not rigid instructions that must be adhered to by the letter. They merely suggest the tonal center of a piece. Any key sig can be negated at any time by an accidental. In this case, the C# in the A chord is the accidental.

Same with scales and modes...trying to find a mode that works across the board in songs is futile because people just don't write that way. It is way better to develop a chordal approach to playing music and work in the moment of the chord rather than limit yourself to a mode.

[bassybill]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Key signatures are not rigid instructions that must be adhered to by the letter. They merely suggest the tonal center of a piece. Any key sig can be negated at any time by an accidental. In this case, the C# in the A chord is the accidental.

Same with scales and modes...trying to find a mode that works across the board in songs is futile because people just don't write that way. It is way better to develop a chordal approach to playing music and work in the moment of the chord rather than limit yourself to a mode.

I'd definitely agree with this. But I'd also add that some sort of modal feel is common in a lot of modern music, so thinking about this can be interesting when figuring out how a particular song "works".

On the original "A major chord in an E minor song" question - it's VERY common to find a IV chord (major of the fourth) in music in minor keys. It's a non-diatonic chord if you just consider the natural minor scale (Aeolian mode). But it crops up in the Dorian mode, and a lot of contemporary music has more of a Dorian vibe to it than the classically more traditional natural minor scale.

If I was transcribing this tune, I'd agree with the guy who wrote the version referred to in the OP. If you used two sharps in the key signature, you'd create the impression that it was in B minor (or D) and this would not be the thing to do at all. It's more based on E minor (Dorian being a mode with a minor third) than anything else, so the key signature gets one sharp (F#). Then you use an accidental to sharpen the A to A# as needed.

This is all a result of the fact that our conventional key signatures were, in traditional Western music, only ever really intended to imply major or minor keys very much based on the major scale (Ionian mode) and the natural minor scale (Aeolian modes) respectively. Music with a different modal slant to it often requires a compromise between a key signature that doesn't mislead and the use of accidentals, which are common enough anyway in pretty much any sort of music.

To the OP - it may help to think of theory of being useful to describe or understand what makes something musical in a particular way, rather than thinking of it as a set of rules to be followed.