Key signature Q

[Casezilla]

When trying to determine a key of a piece or a portion of a piece, how do I do it? I know to use the circle of fifths, depending on sharps and flats, all that stuff. But what I don't know, is what do I do when there are sharps AND flats? Just make all the flats their equivalent sharps, or vice versa?

[thatotherguy]

analyze it, so look at what chord the piece starts and finishes on. look at how the chords are moving (this is when putting it into roman numerals really helps) that will generally tell you what key your in.

There will be accidentals in nearly all pieces as thats what generally make the piece interesting. if its shown as a sharp or flat is normally just for ease of reading

[MalcolmAmos]

Normally a scale will not have sharps and flats -- one or the other..... OPPS then up pops the Blues scale 1, b3 4 #4, 5, b7, O'h well - we do the best we can.

Back to your question; "But what I don't know, is what do I do when there are sharps AND flats? Just make all the flats their equivalent sharps, or vice versa"?

Helps to have a scale chart - notice none of the following have both sharps and flats.

Major Scale Chart
C D E F G A B...............Notice the C scale has no Sharps
G A B C D E F#.............and the G scale has one, the F#
D E F# G A B C#...........and the D scale keeps the F# and
A B C# D E F# G#.........adds the C#. Then the A scale keeps
E F# G# A B C# D#.......everything and adds the G#. See how
B C# D# E F# G# A#.....it builds on it's self.
F# G# A# B C# D# E#
C# D# E# F# G# A# B#
F G A Bb C D E.............Look what happens with the flat scales
Bb C D Eb F G A...........F has one the Bb, then the Bb scale keeps
Eb F G Ab Bb C D.........it's self and adds the the Eb. Same thing
Ab Bb C Db Eb F G.......the sharp scales did...
Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C
Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F
Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb
Memory pegs:
See God Destroy All Earth By F#irey C#haos. Order of the scales with sharps.
Fat cats go down alleys eating birds. Order of the sharps.
Farmer brown eats apple dumplings greasily cooked. Order of the scales with flats.
The key signature is showing three sharps. What scale has three sharps? C has none, G has one, D has two, A has three. Which sharps? Fat = F#, Cat = C# and Go = G# so the A major scale has three sharps, F#, C# and G#.

Natural Minor Scale Chart
A B C D E F G ................Notice how the 6th column of the
E F# G A B C D................Major scale becomes the 1st column
B C# D E F# G A..............in the minor scale and how the 7th
F# G# A B C# D E............column of the Major scale is now the
C# D# E F# G# A B..........2nd column in the minor scale. And
G# A# B C# D# E F#........yep, the 1st column in the Major scale
D# E# F# G# A# B C#......is now the 3rd column, etc. etc.
A# B# C# D# E# F# G#....Ask your self why? Hint, think relative minor.
D E F G A Bb C
G A Bb C D Eb F
C D Eb F G Ab Bb
F G Ab Bb C Db Eb
Bb C Db Eb F Gb Ab
Eb F Gb Ab Bb Cb Db
Ab Bb Cb Db Eb Fb Gb

If you find a piece of music using sharps and flats play them as the song writer wrote them. He/she had a reason.


Good luck.

[Pat C.]

Originally Posted by Casezilla

When trying to determine a key of a piece or a portion of a piece, how do I do it?

Are you looking at a sheet of music, or listening or transcribing or learning the song by ear and trying to determine key centers?

I know to use the circle of fifths, depending on sharps and flats, all that stuff. But what I don't know, is what do I do when there are sharps AND flats?

A tune can move through several keys necessitating sharps or flats that are part of the chords of the new keys. Also, sharps or flats within a chord may be chord extensions and aren't necessarily out of key, even though they aren't diatonic. An example may be an Eb note in a D7 chord in the key of G major. The key signature is F# and there are no flats, but the Eb is the b9 of an extended D7 chord. This can get much more complicated with additional extensions and in keys with more accidentals.

Just make all the flats their equivalent sharps, or vice versa?

I don't think this is likely to work as a rule. I would tend to think if there are both sharps and flats there is probably a harmonic reason for it (or a misprint).

Do you have a specific song that you're trying to analyze?

[MalcolmAmos]

Interesting fact what makes it a sharp or a flat?

The note C#/Db (One black key on the keyboard) Going up scale we call it C#. Coming down scale we would call it Db.

Some more thoughts:

The C Algerian scale has both.
intervals: 1,2,b3,4,#4,5,b6,7
notes: C,D,Eb,F,F#,G,Ab,B

As does the C Whole Tone
intervals: 1,2,3,#4,#5,b7
notes: C,D,E,F#,G#,Bb

And we talked about the Blues scale earlier. So you just play them as you find them.

[Febs]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Interesting fact what makes it a sharp or a flat?

The note C#/Db (One black key on the keyboard) Going up scale we call it C#. Coming down scale we would call it Db.

That is not correct. There is a C# in a D scale whether ascending or descending.

[Casezilla]

Originally Posted by Pat C.

Do you have a specific song that you're trying to analyze?

Kind of. I am composing my own song for a rather large school project, and I need to figure out the key of it in most places.

[Pat C.]

Originally Posted by Casezilla

Kind of. I am composing my own song for a rather large school project, and I need to figure out the key of it in most places.

What do you have composed? Melody, riffs, chords?

Can you post up (or link to) the chord progression or a chord chart? We could help sort through it.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by Febs

That is not correct. There is a C# in a D scale whether ascending or descending.

i'm looking at the piano keyboard - that black key between the C and D note. Its a C#/Db If you are going up scale its called C#, if you are going down scale its called Db.

[onlyclave]

The incorrect information in this thread is staggering.

[Pat C.]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

i'm looking at the piano keyboard - that black key between the C and D note. Its a C#/Db If you are going up scale its called C#, if you are going down scale its called Db.

That black key is called C# in the key of D major whether you're going up, down or sideways. You may have been misinformed about this previously, but trust those that are giving you facts now.

[Febs]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

i'm looking at the piano keyboard - that black key between the C and D note. Its a C#/Db If you are going up scale its called C#, if you are going down scale its called Db.

This is still wrong, and it's not even consistent with what you wrote earlier in the thread. Look at the Ab scale you wrote above--you wrote it ascending, and it has a Db, not a C#.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by Febs

This is still wrong, and it's not even consistent with what you wrote earlier in the thread. Look at the Ab scale you wrote above--you wrote it ascending, and it has a Db, not a C#.

You are missing my point. I'm speaking of one sound, not the whole scale. BTW - That Ab scale has all flats - it has the Db and not the C#, because if we let it have the C# we would not have a D in the scale. That's one of the things we try and have in each scale - all 7 letters.

Point I'm making - the sound of that black key on the piano keyboard between the C and D is the sound of the C#/Db. One sound with two names. The accepted way of naming it is if you are moving up scale you call it C#, because it is one half tone above C. Now if you were coming down scale it would be called Db, as it is one half tone below D.

[Febs]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

You are missing my point. I'm speaking of one sound, not the whole scale.

You're not speaking of "one sound." In fact, you said exactly the opposite: "Its a C#/Db If you are going up scale its called C#, if you are going down scale its called Db." You clearly were not talking about a single note in isolation.

Point I'm making - the sound of that black key on the piano keyboard between the C and D is the sound of the C#/Db. One sound with two names.

No-one is disputing that C# and Db on a piano are enharmonic equivalents. What we are disputing is your claim that what note you are actually playing is determined by the direction of the scale you are playing.

[jmac]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

The accepted way of naming it is if you are moving up scale you call it C#, because it is one half tone above C. Now if you were coming down scale it would be called Db, as it is one half tone below D.

I have very limited knowledge of music theory and I know that this is incorrect.

As you pointed out previously, scales like having the letter appear once and only once. Ignore the blues scale, those cats are crazy. lol.

AMaj - A B C# D E F# G#. It is a C# not Db not because of ascending or descending but because all notes should be present.

[MalcolmAmos]

Yes I agree. The notes within a scale are called sharp or flat because of the way they fit into the scale.

In playing piano. You have a black note between the C and the D. What would you call it?

[jmac]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Yes I agree. The notes within a scale are called sharp or flat because of the way they fit into the scale.

In playing piano. You have a black note between the C and the D. What would you call it?

What Key are we playing in?

Arbitrarily, I would call it a C# because I hate flat keys; though I love horn players. Isn't life ironic?

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Point I'm making - the sound of that black key on the piano keyboard between the C and D is the sound of the C#/Db. One sound with two names. The accepted way of naming it is if you are moving up scale you call it C#, because it is one half tone above C. Now if you were coming down scale it would be called Db, as it is one half tone below D.

Actually, no, that's not the accepted way of naming it at all. It depends on key and harmonic function, as several folks have said.

[MalcolmAmos]

OK we've beat this to death let's move on.

[dalkowski]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

Actually, no, that's not the accepted way of naming it at all. It depends on key and harmonic function, as several folks have said.

+1,000,000. I've never, ever heard of this "one name ascending/another name descending" in my roughly 40 years of involvement in music. Please disabuse yourself of this misguided notion ASAP -- it's holding you back in a big way.