Key signatures and notes in a scale

[alexit]

I'm learning to read, and it's been going well. I've been working on key signatures for a couple of days and I feel like I know them forwards and backwards - that is, I can name the key by looking at the signature, and also write the signature of a named key (the addition/subtraction method figures out how many flats/sharps there are, then you just read around the circle of fifths).

What I want to do from here is be able to name all of the notes on a scale. Since sharps are placed in the order of the circle of fifths, it's hard to quickly translate that when you want to read up or down the scale. Is there some kind of trick?

For instance, the key of E major has 4 sharps, F#-C#-G#-D# (just going around the circle). All of these sharps are out of order! If I write E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E, down I can add the sharps and get the actual scale, E-F#-G#-A-B-C#-D#-E fast enough, but there seems to be some way that people do it off the top of their heads.

[bigthemat]

kind of not what you are looking for, but another trick to name the key signatures wicked fast is easy.

sharps. Take the last sharp, and raise it 1/2 step, thus, 5 sharps, the last sharp written in the key signature is A. Thus, A# up 1/2 step is B.

For flats, take the second to last flat, and that is the key, thus, 3 flats, the 2nd to last flat is Eb, thus, Eb! Just remember this wont work with F major, but just remember that it only has 1 flat.


Now, as far as being able to name the notes, it is really just all about practice. play scales while saying the note names. This will help you remember the pattern of the sharps/flats for that key. Also you will start to see patterns, like, you know that all flat key signatures will have at least a Bb, or sharps will always have at least a F#.

another thing you can do are flash cards. You can buy em, make em, whatever. Have an assortment of the key signatures, or just the name of the key, and with repetition you will memorize. i repeat, repetition. again, repetition is the key to learning anything. did I mention repetition?

and if you practice scales around the cirlce of IVs, (i like IVs better than Vs, that way your last 3 scales you play will be a II-V-I). And as you go around, you will just add 1 flat, until you get to around Cb, which is just really B major, and then you take away one sharp as you go around.

Also, repetition is the key to learning/memorizing anything.

[Jazzerbone]

Acronyms are good.

Fat College Girls Don't Always Eat Bacon

That's what I use for the order of sharps. The order of flats is exactly reversed.....

BEAD Geese Can Fly

With sharped keys, the last one in the order is always the 7th scale degree and in flats the last one is the 4th scale degree. Thats one way of knowing how far in the order to go. The order of sharps and flats never change. (except in very crazy situations).

Eventually though it all becomes second nature.

[alexit]

Originally Posted by bigthemat

kind of not what you are looking for, but another trick to name the key signatures wicked fast is easy.

sharps. Take the last sharp, and raise it 1/2 step, thus, 5 sharps, the last sharp written in the key signature is A. Thus, A# up 1/2 step is B.

For flats, take the second to last flat, and that is the key, thus, 3 flats, the 2nd to last flat is Eb, thus, Eb! Just remember this wont work with F major, but just remember that it only has 1 flat.

Those are the quick tricks I use , and work good. For minor keys, do you usually just find what the major key would be, and the find the 6th (or down 3 semi-tones, etc)?

As far as naming the notes, I guess it's just practice and memorization, no super-shortcuts there .

[hunta]

Originally Posted by Jazzerbone

Acronyms are good.

Fat College Girls Don't Always Eat Bacon

Hahaha, never heard that one before.

[Johnny StingRay]

Sharps go by fifths: C no sharps, G one sharp (F#), D two sharps (F#, C#), A has three sharps (F#, C#, G#), E has four sharps (F#, C#, G#, D#), etc.
Flats go by fourths: C has no flats, F has one flat (Bb), Bb has two flats (Bb, Eb), Eb has three flats (Bb, Eb, Ab), Ab has four flats (Bb, Eb, Ab, Db) etc.
Oh, by the way, most of the old studio pros and jazz players didn't call it the "Circle Of Fifths", it was simply, "the cycle" and they referred to it in regards to fourths because of the ii - V - I progression so common in jazz.
Pretty cool how that works out.
Peace, Johnny

[bigthemat]

Originally Posted by Johnny StingRay

Sharps go by fifths: C no sharps, G one sharp (F#), D two sharps (F#, C#), A has three sharps (F#, C#, G#), E has four sharps (F#, C#, G#, D#), etc.
Flats go by fourths: C has no flats, F has one flat (Bb), Bb has two flats (Bb, Eb), Ab has three flats (Bb, Eb, Ab), Db has four flats (Bb, Eb, Ab, Db) etc.
Oh, by the way, most of the old studio pros and jazz players didn't call it the "Circle Of Fifths", it was simply, "the cycle" and they referred to it in regards to fourths because of the ii - V - I progression so common in jazz.
Pretty cool how that works out.
Peace, Johnny

you forgot Eb in there. That has 3. Ab has four...

(don't hate me)

[Johnny StingRay]

Originally Posted by bigthemat

you forgot Eb in there. That has 3. Ab has four...

(don't hate me)

Thank you for catching my mistake! I edited it and corrected my error. Just another symptom of "Old Timers" Disease!!!!
Peace, Johnny

[ryco]

Here's a cool little learning tool developed by one of our own TBers, circleoffifths aka Jan.

http://www.circle-of-fifths.net/learn.html

[lonestarwings]

For me it was easy to remember the pattern because the last four in each sequence of the flat and natural majors are the same as the tuning of the strings. For the sharps I disregard C# since it's the same tonally as Gb and F# since it's the same as Db:

C: all natural

F: Bb
Bb: Bb, Eb
Eb: Bb, Eb, Ab
Ab: Bb, Eb, Ab, Gb
Db: Bb, Eb, Ab, Gb, Db
Gb: Bb, Eb, Ab, Gb, Db, Cb

B: F#, C#, G#, D#, A#
E: F#, C#, G#, D#
A: F#, C#, G#
D: F#, C#
G: F#

[alexit]

I've been practicing more and it's getting better. Just to clarify the original question, I wasn't having trouble with finding what the accidentals are, it was finding the actual order they come in as you go up and down a given scale. For instance:


Eb: Bb, Eb, Ab, linear order Eb, F G Ab, Bb, C D
Db: Bb, Eb, Ab, Gb, Db linear order Db, Eb, F Gb, Ab, Bb,

When you get to a key with many flats or sharps, it gets kind of hard to re-order them in your head. What helped me was to make sure I had the fingerboard pattern down in those difficult keys with open strings like E.

[phektus]

Originally Posted by alexit

I've been practicing more and it's getting better. Just to clarify the original question, I wasn't having trouble with finding what the accidentals are, it was finding the actual order they come in as you go up and down a given scale. For instance:


Eb: Bb, Eb, Ab, linear order Eb, F G Ab, Bb, C D
Db: Bb, Eb, Ab, Gb, Db linear order Db, Eb, F Gb, Ab, Bb,

When you get to a key with many flats or sharps, it gets kind of hard to re-order them in your head. What helped me was to make sure I had the fingerboard pattern down in those difficult keys with open strings like E.

I'm no expert at all and I've learned a lot about key signatures from this post alone, but I think you can easily arrange them in your head once you got the notes. You're just going to arrange them alphabetically anyway. As for me, I don't worry on their linear ordering at all, as I can't use that in my musical situations. IMHO memorizing them in no particular order is harder and more useful than thinking over their linear sequence. My 2 cents.