Are The Keys Of C# And Cb Ever Used?

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Just curious if there's any practical uses for learning these keys, as I've never seen a situation where B or Db weren't used in their place.

[Mark Wilson]

Well, what are they going to do? Just leave em out?
That would make Theory even more confusing!



-Mark

[seventhson]

IMO, i don't think it would ever be used in practice...maybe theory. I think there's a reason why the circle of fifths/fourths (a practical tool derived from theory) never go beyond F#/Gb in terms of keys with more sharps/flats.

[johnvice]

Originally Posted by Bryan R. Tyler

Just curious if there's any practical uses for learning these keys, as I've never seen a situation where B or Db weren't used in their place.

The following keys are the same:
Cb (7 flats) and B (5 sharps)
Gb (6 flats) and F# (6 sharps)
Db (5 flats) and C# (7 sharps)

[Wrong Robot]

I saw a chart in C# once, I cannot remember why it was in C#, but I think it had something to do with modulating. It changed key centers from something with fewer sharps(perhaps B). So, rather than switch from flats to sharps in the middle of the song, it went to C#.

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Originally Posted by Mark Wilson

Well, what are they going to do? Just leave em out?
That would make Theory even more confusing!


-Mark

They usually DO leave them out because their presence DOES make things more confusing, as their enharmonic equivalents seem to always take their place.

Originally Posted by johnvice

The following keys are the same:
Cb (7 flats) and B (5 sharps)
Gb (6 flats) and F# (6 sharps)
Db (5 flats) and C# (7 sharps)

The note tones in the keys themselves are the same, but different note names are used for each, so they are still different keys. The point of my thread was asking if there is ever a practical use for using C# and Cb, the enharmonic equivalents of Db and B, as they do exist theoretically but I've never seen them used in practice.

Originally Posted by Wrong Robot

I saw a chart in C# once, I cannot remember why it was in C#, but I think it had something to do with modulating. It changed key centers from something with fewer sharps(perhaps B). So, rather than switch from flats to sharps in the middle of the song, it went to C#.

That seems like it might be a good reason- I hadn't thought of that. It would make more sense if for example modulating from F# to keep all the sharps rather than switching to five flats. On paper at least.

[phxlbrmpf]

I could imagine using those keys when you're writing a song to match someone's vocal range. I'm a firm believer that all keys have their place.

[Howard K]

I've not seen music written entirely in those keys, but I have seen charts that modulate to those keys. I cant remember the songs but I have some accross one (or maybe two?) charts with II-V-I in Cb.

Generally I dont bother with the enharmonically impractical keys when I practice. It's pretty easy to grasp tho really, C# has every note sharped and Cb has every note flatted

[Howard K]

Originally Posted by phxlbrmpf

I could imagine using those keys when you're writing a song to match someone's vocal range. I'm a firm believer that all keys have their place.

Yeah, you might wind up with a horn part in a nasty key if you maintained consistant theory across all the charts.. altho I cant imagine any horn players would thank you for it!

Anyway, I agree, all keys do have their place, E# Major should remain in the theory books!!

[Correlli]

I agree with WR. It'll be something to do with modulating.

[Bassic83]

Isn't the key of Cb also known as the key of Bcool?

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Originally Posted by Bassic83

Isn't the key of Cb also known as the key of Bcool?

[seanm]

Don't know if this counts but I've played in C# more than once. The guitars where playing C with a capo on the first fret.

[gsys]

"Are The Keys Of C# And Cb Ever Used?"
Yes.

[Wrong Robot]

Originally Posted by seanm

Don't know if this counts but I've played in C# more than once. The guitars where playing C with a capo on the first fret.

That wouldn't make their Cs into C#s Were their guitars first tuned down to a low C?

[seventhson]

Originally Posted by Wrong Robot

That wouldn't make their Cs into C#s Were their guitars first tuned down to a low C?

He meant the guitarist were strumming an open C chord shape with a capo at the 1st fret, so the guitarist was effectively playing an open C# chord.

[seanm]

Originally Posted by seventhson

He meant the guitarist were strumming an open C chord shape with a capo at the 1st fret, so the guitarist was effectively playing an open C# chord.

Correct. Sorry for the confusion. I am playing in C#, they are in "C" from their point of view. They will tell you the chord sequence in C and you have to transpose.

I tried capoing the bass, but it goes *way* sharp.

[burntgorilla]

I'm guessing Prelude in C# is in C#, so it's not like it's never used... I'm listening to it now, Rachmaninov wrote it when he was pretty young, didn't he? Bloody prodigies.

[Wrong Robot]

Originally Posted by seanm

Correct. Sorry for the confusion. I am playing in C#, they are in "C" from their point of view. They will tell you the chord sequence in C and you have to transpose.

I tried capoing the bass, but it goes *way* sharp.

But they wouldn't be in "C" from their point of view. In order to produce an open C# chord, they have to switch their left hand position up a half-step. Capos don't affect fretted notes.

and what's wrong when you capo your bass? if it's going way sharp, maybe your intonation is messed, a capo shouldn't mess with your tuning like that.

[Wrong Robot]

Originally Posted by seventhson

He meant the guitarist were strumming an open C chord shape with a capo at the 1st fret, so the guitarist was effectively playing an open C# chord.

No, they would be playing an F min major 7 or some jazz like that. To play an open C# chord, they would have to shift their fretting hand up a half step, effectively putting them outside of thinking in "c"