Keys and Chords and Modes, Oh My

[NSGSplatmaster]

Apologies in advance if this was already covered in the forum sticky, I've been through a lot of those threads in the past and they all have great info but I've had a question that's been bugging me for awhile. I've been trying to self educate myself on theory for the past year and a half or so and still get a bit confused when I try to think practically about how chords relate to a key in terms of what options a bassist has for bass line construction.

When dealing with a certain chord (Let's say C Major, since there are no accidentals), I know one can play the following.

1. The root (C)
2. A corresponding mode (C Ionian)
3. Relating to / The Same As above, the C Major Scale
4. A third or a perfect 5th, or any construction of inversion

Question 1: In terms of modes, am I limited to C Ionian? If the next chord after C Major was D Major, could one include C Dorian into the mix, as the "destination" of the progression is D Major?

Secondly, when multiple chord changes are involved, I get a bit mixedup. Say there was a common chord progression of C Major, G Major, A Major, B Major, and back to C Major. Because the first chord of the progression is C, and assuming I saw sheet music with no accidentals, I would say the key is C. However, G Major differs from the notes of C Ionian because it has an F# in it. A major has a C#, F#, and Ab in the A Major scale. Because the individual notes in the scale are not consistently the same as what is in C Major, does the key of the song change? Clearly, there are different accidentals in G Major and A Major than in C Major.

OR

Do the accidentals only apply to the chords? For example, in a progression of C Major, G Major, F Major, the notes C, G, and F are all found in the C Major Scale and so these CHORDS are allright to use, regardless of the INDIVIDUAL accidentals in these chords?

Sorry if I'm not explaining this well, its very cloudy in my head and hard to express.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by NSGSplatmaster

When dealing with a certain chord (Let's say C Major, since there are no accidentals), I know one can play the following.

1. The root (C)
2. A corresponding mode (C Ionian)
3. Relating to / The Same As above, the C Major Scale
4. A third or a perfect 5th, or any construction of inversion

5. Any note as you see fit...I could even work in a note like C# in the right context. It's all about context.

Originally Posted by NSGSplatmaster

Question 1: In terms of modes, am I limited to C Ionian? If the next chord after C Major was D Major, could one include C Dorian into the mix, as the "destination" of the progression is D Major?

Yes. Or no. Depends on the song and the level of "cringe factor" you feel when you play the outside notes in the C dorian mode. Again, you can make any note work in the right context. If you crowbar it in, it will probably sound like poopycaca. If you are tasteful and use the outside notes of the C dorian in a way that doesn't make you cringe, such as a pickup to a strong beat for example, then it will be fine.

Originally Posted by NSGSplatmaster

Secondly, when multiple chord changes are involved, I get a bit mixedup. Say there was a common chord progression of C Major, G Major, A Major, B Major, and back to C Major. Because the first chord of the progression is C, and assuming I saw sheet music with no accidentals, I would say the key is C. However, G Major differs from the notes of C Ionian because it has an F# in it. A major has a C#, F#, and Ab in the A Major scale. Because the individual notes in the scale are not consistently the same as what is in C Major, does the key of the song change? Clearly, there are different accidentals in G Major and A Major than in C Major.

OR

Do the accidentals only apply to the chords? For example, in a progression of C Major, G Major, F Major, the notes C, G, and F are all found in the C Major Scale and so these CHORDS are allright to use, regardless of the INDIVIDUAL accidentals in these chords?

The key does not change with the chord changes unless specified on the music. If a chord change forces you to be outside of the key, treat it as an accidental. When you get more skilled with this stuff, you will be able to feel the key of the song running through the chord progressions and make appropriate note choices based on it.

You ask some good questions, but your questions are why I'm not a fan of modal playing. Modes are great to know, and they certainly help people make good note choices in the beginning stages, but they're only guidelines, not hard and fast rules. Plus they don't allow for chromatic playing. I don't care if I'm in the key of C, if I can find an interesting use for notes out of the key like F# or Eb for example, I'm using them. And musicians who rely on modes too much usually end up sounding like they're running scales or practicing exercises instead of playing from the heart.

If it's a school exercise, by all means stick to the specified modes. You'll definitely be the better for it. But when you get on the bandstand, play fewer modes and more of what your gut tells you is the right thing to play, even if it's a little outside. Victor Wooten said it best...when you solo and you make an odd note choice, you're only 1/2 step away from a good note choice at all times.

[bwv1013]

here's a quick and dirty way to lay out how modes work:

C - 1 - Ionian
D - 2 - Dorian
E - 3 - Phrygian
F - 4- Lydian
G - 5 - Mixolydian
A - 6- Aeolian (aka natural minor)
B - 7 - Locrian

That's the sequence of modes in relationship to the C major scale. in other words, if you want to play "B Locrian" just play the notes diatonic to the key of C, but B is the start/end pitch, or tonal center of the mode.

Here's another way to look at it:

Let's say you want to play Ab Lydian. Lydian is #4 in the sequence of modes. Figure out in which key Ab is the 4th note (Eb major), and play the notes in that scale. So for Ab Lydian you would play the notes in Eb major, but once again Ab is the tonal center.

You can also think of the modes in terms of how they differ from the major scale, for example: Dorian = major scale with minor 3rd and minor 7th. I find this way to be a bit cumbersome but it can be helpful when it's time to memorize patterns on the bass and actually start putting them into playing time.

As for chord tones, stick with the key of the song and only change pitches when needed for a certain chord. For example, if you're playing in the key of C and for whatever reason you get to an A major chord, play the C sharp needed for A major, but don't worry about following the entire key signature for the A major scale. Change only what you need for the one chord. If you're reading standard notation the accidentals will be provided for you.

I hope this helps at least a little. Wikipedia has some decent articles on music theory, read as many sources as you need until it makes sense to you.

[JTE]

Don't look at chords as static units, but look at the progression. Your job as bassist is to connect the rhtyhm with the melody AND to define the harmony. The harmony ain't about one chord at a time. It's about where the chords are going. So, you have to look at the chords in groups, figure out how they go together, and how you can communicate that information musically. BTW, that's why I despise how modes are most commonly taught.

WhY do you think Ionian is the only mode for the C? Because you've assumed it's the I chord.. But if it's the IV chord then you wouldn't use Ionian.

Look at the chord progression, and find the notes that tie it or sections of it together. And as JimmyM say, any note is fair game depending on context! So, instead of looking at modes, go straight to the chord. What are the chord tones? Those are your target notes, the others can be from the chord, passing tones from the related mode, or notes that are just way outside. It depends on the context. And not just the context of the chord, but what others in the band are playing. If you slip a b5 in, you better be careful that the piano player hasnt' decided to hammer the natural 5 in that exact place...

jte

[NSGSplatmaster]

Thanks for all the quick replies. I guess I'm not sure how modes should effect me (aka, how much time to spend on them) but I figured it's better to know too much than too little. The struggle for me is competing approaches to bass. I see a lot of bassists come up with some sick lines and fills and when I approach them after their show, they tell me they don't know hardly any theory. Yet other players tell me that unless I eat, sleep, and crap theory, I'll never be able to accomplish good fills.

I guess the reason I'm in mode-mode (heh) is because I'm trying to get to the next level of good fills. I think I have a good base of basic patterns and variations that I've observed and tried myself with some experimentation, but I have a technical working mind so sometimes being able to put logic to a process helps me understand and use it...although I have wondered in passing if good bassists are thinking of all this stuff in their head. Like "So I'm transitioning to THIS chord and I can use THESE scales or modes and use THIS part of THIS degree" etc etc etc. That just makes me want to

[Richard Lindsey]

With respect, I'd actually suggest forgetting about modes for the time being. Spend more time on understanding (1) keys, tonal centers, and harmonic function, and (2) chord tones versus non-chord tones. There is a place for modes, but honestly, a lot of people get way too hung up on them way too soon IMO and IME.

I'm not advocating ignorance in any sense; I'm suggesting not putting the cart before the horse. The cart's time will come.:-)

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by NSGSplatmaster

Thanks for all the quick replies. I guess I'm not sure how modes should effect me (aka, how much time to spend on them) but I figured it's better to know too much than too little. The struggle for me is competing approaches to bass. I see a lot of bassists come up with some sick lines and fills and when I approach them after their show, they tell me they don't know hardly any theory. Yet other players tell me that unless I eat, sleep, and crap theory, I'll never be able to accomplish good fills.

I guess the reason I'm in mode-mode (heh) is because I'm trying to get to the next level of good fills. I think I have a good base of basic patterns and variations that I've observed and tried myself with some experimentation, but I have a technical working mind so sometimes being able to put logic to a process helps me understand and use it...although I have wondered in passing if good bassists are thinking of all this stuff in their head. Like "So I'm transitioning to THIS chord and I can use THESE scales or modes and use THIS part of THIS degree" etc etc etc. That just makes me want to

Totally understood. And yes, there are some people who can play their butts off and don't know a lick of theory. Those people are commonly known as "exceptions." I honestly don't think I'd be as good at playing if I didn't know theory. Not necessary to eat, sleep, and crap it, but a good working knowledge of the basics of theory never hurt anyone.

[Rudreax]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

With respect, I'd actually suggest forgetting about modes for the time being. Spend more time on understanding (1) keys, tonal centers, and harmonic function, and (2) chord tones versus non-chord tones. There is a place for modes, but honestly, a lot of people get way too hung up on them way too soon IMO and IME.

I'm not advocating ignorance in any sense; I'm suggesting not putting the cart before the horse. The cart's time will come.:-)

+1. The problem with modes is that too many people get caught up in them long before they ever need to know about them and fail to understand them properly.

[Plantbrain]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Totally understood. And yes, there are some people who can play their butts off and don't know a lick of theory. Those people are commonly known as "exceptions." I honestly don't think I'd be as good at playing if I didn't know theory. Not necessary to eat, sleep, and crap it, but a good working knowledge of the basics of theory never hurt anyone.

Makes learning to play well, easier than the other way(exceptions). You get much more out of the work you put in and even if you a ball of raw talent, you become even that much better doing this path.

Depends on just how serious you really are about becoming better, this takes discipline and effort, so does becoming a raw talent player also, no easy ways, but given a choice, learn the theory.

It'll only make you better.

Tom

[JPhoenix19]

Originally Posted by NSGSplatmaster

Say there was a common chord progression of C Major, G Major, A Major, B Major, and back to C Major.

That would be a strange chord progression if you are in the key of C Major. For those chords to be diatonic (that is, for them to fit within the key of C Major), you would actually have C major, G major, A minor, B minor, and C major- if I'm not mistaken. If it helps, here's my perspective on it...

...If you are playing a song that is in the key of C major, you have C, D, E, F, G, A, and B to choose from as far as notes that are diatonic to the key of C Major. If you really break it down, you can basically build a bass line using any of those notes over any chord within C Major.

Originally Posted by JimmyM

...I could even work in a note like C# in the right context. It's all about context.

This is why it is just as- if not more important to develop your ears. Your ears will generally be the best way you can tell what notes will work best in your bass lines.

I hope all that helps...

[NSGSplatmaster]

Thanks for all the replies from everyone. Phoenix, I guess that was one of my points of confusion. The pattern of tones and semi tones (or whole and half steps, or Major and Minor) then applies to the chords WITHIN a key, not the individual notes in the chord? The individual note B fits in a C Major scale, but as a chord, the only way it can be diatonic is if its a minor, as per

C Major, D minor, E minor, F Major, G Major, A minor, and B diminished?

Again, thanks for answering a stupid question.

[Rudreax]

Originally Posted by NSGSplatmaster

Thanks for all the replies from everyone. Phoenix, I guess that was one of my points of confusion. The pattern of tones and semi tones (or whole and half steps, or Major and Minor) then applies to the chords WITHIN a key, not the individual notes in the chord? The individual note B fits in a C Major scale, but as a chord, the only way it can be diatonic is if its a minor, as per

C Major, D minor, E minor, F Major, G Major, A minor, and B diminished?

Again, thanks for answering a stupid question.

To be annoying specific, you wouldn't use those chords in a diatonic song. Rather, you'd use this:

CMaj, Dm, Esus, FMaj(#4), G7, Am(b6), B Half-Diminished

In diatonic songs, though, you'd usually only use these:

Cmaj, Dm, Fmaj, G7, Am


I'd suggest you learn about these chords, how they are constructed, and how they are used before worrying about modes.

[totallyfrozen]

My answer may be overly simple, but I'd say usually your note choices (within a chord or key) are mostly limited (or considered to be) by the genre of music you are playing. Some notes seem to sound "right" within a song and others may sound "wrong" within that same song. If you played a different genre, the "wrong" notes might not sound wrong at all. For example, some notes may sound tasty in a jazz bass line but might sound very out of place if you played the same line in bluegrass or some other style. For some reason, I have the feeling that this doesn't answer the OP at all...sorry.

[SpawnofHastur]

I'm probably a bit odd in how I'm learning to play, but at the moment I don't give half a hoot about the modes when it comes to learning to play over chord progressions.

What I prefer to think about is arpeggios- focusing on getting the ability to move from non-chord tones to chord tones and get the right balance of tension and resolution. I try to focus on using approach tones picked without caring about the theory at first and then moving to a chord tone as I see fit- I don't think about modes in that circumstance, just about what I think sounds cool.

Once I've done this enough to get my ears working, I'll move to transcribing the lines and then analyzing them from a modal/scalar perspective. But, at the moment, I'm simply thinking of chord-tones and picking the appropriate colour tones by ear.

It's probably not the best way of learning to play, but it's one that I enjoy- the joy of figuring out "oh, this sounds cool over THIS!" without having to analyze it every moment as you play. But that's just me.

[JTE]

Originally Posted by SpawnofHastur

What I prefer to think about is arpeggios- focusing on getting the ability to move from non-chord tones to chord tones and get the right balance of tension and resolution...

"It's probably not the best way of learning to play, but it's one that I enjoy- the joy of figuring out "oh, this sounds cool over THIS!" without having to analyze it every moment as you play. But that's just me.

I think that's the right way to do it. Unless you're playing clearly modal compositions (e.g. Miles Davis' "So What", etc.) then start with the chords. Here's the deal- the bass player's job is to connect the rhythm with the rest of the music and to define the harmony. Modes don't tell you about harmony except in a convoluted manner that eventually refers back to the chord tones. And looking at chords in isolation (which is how modes are most often taught) utterly destroys the concpept of a chord progression. If the bassist isn't telling the rest of the band not only where we are (what chord we're on now) but also where we're going (what the next chord is) and how they go together (chord function), the bassist ain't defining the harmony, but only playing notes.

So, start with chord tones, look for the patterns there (i.e. learn to see WHY a Dmin7 to G7 progression DEFINES the key of C), and then the other notes are passing tones. It's a C major chord, no extensions. Do you play F or F#? Depends on where you're going more than what mode you learned goes with C maj.

jte

[SpawnofHastur]

One of my hobbies is judo, and a good saying there is that you can't just know it in your head- you gotta know it in your butt, from being thrown, from learning from experience.

Bass, to me, is like that. It's one thing knowing theory, but to really 'get it' you need to have practiced so many times that it's just there, part of your ears, something you know innately.

I think a pretty good way to get your head around outlining the harmony at first is by looking at walking bass-lines. They give us the chord we're at, AND the chord we're going too, and give us a really good means of 'getting' the idea at first. Once you've got that down, start varying the note length, the phrasing- just experiment while trying to make sure you're showing: where you are and where you're going.

A lot of this stuff I learned from an article by a guitarist, not a bassist. Pat Martino's article on the 'sacred geometry' approach is a really good way, to me, to get melody improvisation and the harmonic approach down.

Catch the article here!

I've been playing music for over half my life- and for most of that, I didn't even care about the theory. I just read the dots and said: those are the notes, so I'll play them. Now that I've moved to bass, I'm getting a lot more inquisitive.