Are keys interchangeable?

[seanm]

I play with singers that consider all keys interchangeable. They will change keys on a whim. Sometimes it is to bring the song into range, I can accept that. Sometimes it is because one of the chords is too hard to play.

However, I find that difference keys "feel" different. For example, "Crazy" as performed by Patsy Cline is in Bb. Everybody I have played it with moves it to C. I find that it loses something when moved to C. It just doesn't have the same "sad" feel.

To paraphrase Jazzin', "Does every tune have a key which it sounds best in"?

And yes, I know that D minor is the saddest of all keys. Let's get that one out of the way up front.

[slybass3000]

I'm not sure that I understand your question correctly.
But by experience we, musicians have to play tunes in a lot of differents keys to fit the singer's range. So, as bass player we have to adjust our part according to the new key and changing octaves when possible and when it makes sense.
Same with guitar and keyboard.
The drummer on the other hand is wondering what the heck is going on with the band.The band is falling apart while transposing a tritone down.

SB

[djlufkin]

the funniest thing that ever happened to me on stage...the singer puts her capo on the wrong fret for the next tune, the guitar player sees where it is, and copies her, thinking he had it wrong. The song starts and I'm playing the tune in the right key, only now it's wrong and it takes me a few measures to figure out what's going on and the sound woman is in back laughing her a-- off. The same thing happened to our classically trained cello player, and he just sat there for the whole tune because he didn't learn to play patterns on the fingerboard like us hipsters...hah!

[steveb98]

Originally Posted by seanm

I play with singers that consider all keys interchangeable. They will change keys on a whim. Sometimes it is to bring the song into range, I can accept that. Sometimes it is because one of the chords is too hard to play.

However, I find that difference keys "feel" different. For example, "Crazy" as performed by Patsy Cline is in Bb. Everybody I have played it with moves it to C. I find that it loses something when moved to C. It just doesn't have the same "sad" feel.

And yes, I know that D minor is the saddest of all keys. Let's get that one out of the way up front.

I have only heard that key stuff from old classical music theory that keys have moods. Also modes have moods associated with them. I just look at it as major happy, minor sad, and modes have flavors like ice cream.

[Lalabadie]

I have the same feeling about certain songs, when I start playing them (or hear them played) in a different key, I get a different feeling. This is because you are subject to a certain degree of absolute pitch recognition. Sometimes you just got to accept that all those guys down the stage won't hear the difference even if it bothers you, and sometimes you will be able to talk the others into using the right key. But it's nicer to follow the singer's pitch than to force him in a register he does not have, or does not master.

And well, the saddest song I know of is in Bb minor :P

[moopants]

This is a bit off topic, but how does a minor key sound "sad" in comparison to major keys? I've worked with both, and every minor key is the same as a major key. Wouldn't those major keys sound sad, too? That would make every major key sound sad.

[steveb98]

Originally Posted by djlufkin

the funniest thing that ever happened to me on stage...the singer puts her capo on the wrong fret for the next tune, the guitar player sees where it is, and copies her, thinking he had it wrong. The song starts and I'm playing the tune in the right key, only now it's wrong and it takes me a few measures to figure out what's going on and the sound woman is in back laughing her a-- off. The same thing happened to our classically trained cello player, and he just sat there for the whole tune because he didn't learn to play patterns on the fingerboard like us hipsters...hah!

I remember once in this R&B band with a singer we weren't too fond of. He calls a tune and we start playing. We notice in the PA he's singing the wrong song. We look at each other and nod in agreement he's a jerk and keep playing what he called. People were laughing except his entourage try to say how stupid we are. On the break one of his girlfriends is complaining about us to the singer. "You aren't going to take that from those guys are you?". I'm walking by and hear her, I just look both of them oh yes he is and keep walking.

You know the type singer. The ones that say the band needs to rehearse not them. Then they blow the songs.

[seanm]

Originally Posted by Lalabadie

I have the same feeling about certain songs, when I start playing them (or hear them played) in a different key, I get a different feeling. This is because you are subject to a certain degree of absolute pitch recognition.

Hmmm, I wonder. Can absolute pitch be learned? Or at least trained to be better?

Two reasons I ask. First, I am better than average at judging what key we are in based on an opening chord. But one singer has started capoing a lot of songs up one to make them easier for him to sing. This puts us up into keys I am not used to playing in and when capoed (many times I don't notice when he capos) I have more trouble "hearing" the key.

Two, at one time I used to tune using a tuning fork. I got very very good at singing an A. I have lost it over the years of using a tuner

And well, the saddest song I know of is in Bb minor :P

The D minor as the saddest key comes from the movie "This is Spinal Tap".

[seanm]

Originally Posted by moopants

This is a bit off topic, but how does a minor key sound "sad" in comparison to major keys? I've worked with both, and every minor key is the same as a major key. Wouldn't those major keys sound sad, too? That would make every major key sound sad.

Major and minor are not the same. For example, C major is:

C D E F G A B C

C minor is:

C D Eb F G Ab B C

The two flattened notes make it seem sadder. However, if you are just playing I IV V then both are the same C F G. That is why root/fifth is so popular, it works over major and minor scales.

[Jazzin']

Every tune has a key which it sounds best in.

[seanm]

Originally Posted by Jazzin'

Every tune has a key which it sounds best in.

That is probably a better way of putting it. I will add that to the original post.

[ryco]

Are keys interchangable? Yes. The whole-half step patterns stay the same through key changes.

Are they going to sound different? Yes, because they are different. See for yourself - play a song in one key and then play it in another.

[Flintc]

It's like this. The 12-tone scale is a kind of compromise. An octave has a frequency ration of 2:1, with the higher octave being twice the frequecy of the next lower octave. Since this is true of each octave, we can see that the scale we're using is logarithmic scale. So the challenge is to break up an octave in such a way that each frequency is logarithmically the same distance from every other selected frequency. And it turns out that in order for all intervals to be exactly the same (logarithmically), you'd need something like 43 intervals at the minimum.

But breaking an octave down into a 43-note scale is logistically impractical - on a bass, the frets would be much too close together to be workable. And imagine a keyboard! However, if we permit a little bit of rounding off, robbing a little here to add a little there, we can come amazingly close to "exactly the same distance" with only 12 tones in a scale. This is pure luck, mathmatically speaking.

But "amazingly close" is still not so close our ears can't hear the difference. A violin player can tell you that he does not put his finger at the same place to get a given note in one key as in another key. In Bach's day, the clavichord (and harpsichord) were tuned to a particular key, so that the intervals were as perfect as possible for that key. If the key were C, for example, and you played in C#, it would sound just awful. That's because the "well tempered" compromises in rounding off hadn't been made.

This rounding off (which dictates where the frets are located) compromise means that different keys have different personalities to our ears. The intervals between the notes (actually the ratios of these intervals) changes from key to key, changing how chords sound. We often can't quite put our finger on why this is so, but we hear it nonetheless.

Note that with a fretless bass, the 12-tone scale is not used. A fretless bassist (with a good ear) uses the 43-tone scale, without even realizing it, and he doesn't need any rounding off. Just like the violinist.

A good starting point to learn about all this might be here, with a discussion of "just intonation."

[bburk]

Originally Posted by Flintc

It's like this. The 12-tone scale is a kind of compromise. An octave has a frequency ration of 2:1, with the higher octave being twice the frequecy of the next lower octave. Since this is true of each octave, we can see that the scale we're using is logarithmic scale. So the challenge is to break up an octave in such a way that each frequency is logarithmically the same distance from every other selected frequency. And it turns out that in order for all intervals to be exactly the same (logarithmically), you'd need something like 43 intervals at the minimum.

But breaking an octave down into a 43-note scale is logistically impractical - on a bass, the frets would be much too close together to be workable. And imagine a keyboard! However, if we permit a little bit of rounding off, robbing a little here to add a little there, we can come amazingly close to "exactly the same distance" with only 12 tones in a scale. This is pure luck, mathmatically speaking.

But "amazingly close" is still not so close our ears can't hear the difference. A violin player can tell you that he does not put his finger at the same place to get a given note in one key as in another key. In Bach's day, the clavichord (and harpsichord) were tuned to a particular key, so that the intervals were as perfect as possible for that key. If the key were C, for example, and you played in C#, it would sound just awful. That's because the "well tempered" compromises in rounding off hadn't been made.

This rounding off (which dictates where the frets are located) compromise means that different keys have different personalities to our ears. The intervals between the notes (actually the ratios of these intervals) changes from key to key, changing how chords sound. We often can't quite put our finger on why this is so, but we hear it nonetheless.

Note that with a fretless bass, the 12-tone scale is not used. A fretless bassist (with a good ear) uses the 43-tone scale, without even realizing it, and he doesn't need any rounding off. Just like the violinist.

Just wanted to say thanks for that. I've always known about microtone scales and such, but never really understood what it was about or looked into it much. After reading the above, I started poking about on google/wikipedia and now I'm facinated.





'course, I've just revealed that I am decidedly a huge geek...

[seanm]

Flintc that makes a lot of sense!!!!

So a good songwriter would pick a key and chords so that the song works in that key. Maybe not even realizing why. But finding that one key "sounds better" than another.

Going back to my example, Crazy is a complex song (by Country standards) and I notice the Bb to C change a lot. Enough that I practice in Bb and transpose on the fly when playing live. However with simple three/four chord country songs my ear does not rebel at the change in key.

[lemur821]

It's a question of degree to me. Will a tune be pretty much the same if you take it down an octave? No way. A fifth? Probably not. A third? Pushing it. A step? Pretty close, and probably close enough to fool me, but I wouldn't say it's exactly the same.

I don't see that any of the microtonalism stuff applies here. The whole reason we use an equal temperament is so that we can transpose with impunity. It's not so much a question of whether the tune will fit together the same -- the equal temperament takes care of maintaining context; it's a question of whether each individual note will have the proper character, based on its absolute frequency in isolation. I suppose that in the real world each instrument's tessitura comes into play as well.

[arbarnhart]

Originally Posted by seanm

Flintc that makes a lot of sense!!!!

So a good songwriter would pick a key and chords so that the song works in that key. Maybe not even realizing why. But finding that one key "sounds better" than another.

Going back to my example, Crazy is a complex song (by Country standards) and I notice the Bb to C change a lot. Enough that I practice in Bb and transpose on the fly when playing live. However with simple three/four chord country songs my ear does not rebel at the change in key.

I have to disagree. Maybe for a hammerred instrument (piano, clavicord) it might make a difference, but even then I am not so sure. The fretting algorithm is the same whether an instrument is tuned in 4ths, 5ths, 4ths but sometimes a 3rd or whatever and it isn't changed based on which note is the root (ignoring fanned frets which have a premise based in so called science that has a lot of physicists rolling their eyes). A=440 is pretty much the standard, but if everyone agreed to a big shift, say all the way to 500, as long as all the instruments were tuned to it we would adjust to it pretty quickly. You would probably still think D minor is the saddest because it is probably music you listen to and/or play in that key that makes you think so, not that particular set of resonances. I would normally say that it is just my opinion, but I am pretty sure physics backs me up and I think your poll will lean that way also.

[deaf pea]

Originally Posted by Flintc

. . . we can see that the scale we're using is logarithmic scale . . .

Huh? How's that? Please explain to all of us HOW you reach that conclusion (that because of the 2:1 octave ratio, we end up with a logarithmic scale). And, how does the 3:2 ratio of the interval of a 5th, for example, enter into all of this?

Originally Posted by Flintc

. . . amazingly close to "exactly the same distance" with only 12 tones in a scale . . .

Yes, it IS amazingly close . . . like, as in, EXACTLY the same distance (speaking of the ratios, not the value in Hertz , or cycles-per-second) from each of those 12 tones of the equal-tempered chromatic scale to its' neighbor above OR below it!

[dlloyd]

The relationship between frequency and pitch is logarithmic. Frequency increases as a multiplicative process rather than additive.

As you go up a semitone, it increases by a factor of 2^(1/12).

Or would you argue this was a linear relationship?



Edit: No idea what this has to do with changing keys though...

[xifr]

I'm going to say no. If you play something that's downtuned a half step in standard tuning, it doesn't sound as good. So to a certain extent you can swap and it'll still be the same song, but it won't sound the same. I mean... try playing Nigel's song in say, G