Latin Music, Why Clave?

[Jazzerbone]

My first thread... and my first real post! Truly a momentous occasion.

I'm a trombonist who has picked up the love of the bass. As a trombonist, I am beginning to become a little established (recording with Watrous in October) but as a bassist I am learning a whole new side of jazz I wished I had learned a long time ago. All that to say, this is an experienced musician asking questions from a limited bass players point of view.

I've been reading around old threads trying too learn about latin playing and I keep running into people saying that you need to learn clave patterns. Why do I need to know these? How do they apply to bass playing?

Also, I have run into a little bit of a snag in my latin lines. I feel like I don't have many ideas rhythmically. Most of that is because I don't have a really solid foundation of knowing exactly what works and what doesn't rhythmically. I am beginning to dig into the different styles more specifically and soon I will be ordering "The Latin Bass Book". I just need some ideas to let myself stretch out a little.

I'll try an example. How would you play Spain? I seem to find myself around either 16th note pickups to 1 and 3 (or 1 and 2 in cut time) (ba-Dah, ba-Dah, ba-Dah, ba-Dah) or dotted quarter, eighth, eighth or close variations of those. What else can I do to free things up a little? Should I do much more? This is in a trio setting by the way.

G

[JimK]

I'm no expert...I do love Latin jazz, however.

IMO-
The Clave (Son & Rhumba) + the Pulse (on Beats 1 & 3) need to be internalized(forwards & backwards).
This should help/aid you in keeping 'your place' because there are many rhythms that cross the barline...not to mention cross rhythms (e.g. a percussionist playing 6/8 over 4/4) & such.

FME and from my readings on the topic-
Every Latin player(piano, vocalist, guitarist, etc) thinks like a 'percussionist FIRST'. Face it, it is a very rhythmic-style of playing/music.

Having the Clave internalized also helps me in other styles of playing...sometimes I even use it as an aid in 'feeling' Odd times-
Example of 3:2 Clave in 4/4
l1--&--4-l--2-3---l

As an aid in helping me 'feel' something in 7-
l1--&--4-l--2-3-l

...or in One(1) bar form(1/16th note feel)-
l1--a---&---&-4-l

Your "Spain" example looks like a Samba.
When you're playing within the idiom, there are certain/specific requirements...a lot of Latin-style stuff is about the various 'little' parts = something 'bigger'.


Carlos del Puerta has a book called The True Cuban Bassist (it gets a mention in this month's Bass Player mag)...he has examples that begin ultra-simple & end up a lot more 'busy' as he adds variations.

Have fun!

[jazzcrime]

spain is a brazillian style latin song (though correct me if i'm wrong - it's been a while since i've heard it), but clave patterns and the cascara are cuban rhythms so for the sake of correctness they wouldn't really apply to spain or any other brazillian styles like bossa nova, samba or baion.

thought i'm not expert my understanding and what i've been taught about brazillian bass playing is that 1 and 3 are the main beats you should accent. the bass imitates the surdo drum, which is the most important drum in brazillian music - so you can always look for surdo patterns and see what you can find. you'll find you'll make your own fills based off what the other musicians you are playing with are doing but i've got a couple of examples of very simple things i like to do that are very effective:
a. this rhythm is a great one for marking a change in the form ie, A sections played normally and B sections could be marked with this rhythm.
b. this is just a cool simple fill people forget about - quarter notes baby!

hope this helps a little.

[Bobbo 77"]

Órale,
Clave is OUR Back-beat! It's what makes Latin music "Groove",
aside from the Bad Mo-fo 8th notes on the cowbell in Salsa music!
Bobbo 77'

[lemur821]

Originally Posted by Jazzerbone

I've been reading around old threads trying too learn about latin playing and I keep running into people saying that you need to learn clave patterns. Why do I need to know these? Also, I have run into a little bit of a snag in my latin lines. I feel like I don't have many ideas rhythmically. Most of that is because I don't have a really solid foundation of knowing exactly what works and what doesn't rhythmically.

I don't play any latin bass myself, but it's almost as if your subconscious is trying to tell you something.

[Jeff Moote]

Originally Posted by Bobbo 77"

Órale,
Clave is OUR Back-beat! It's what makes Latin music "Groove",
aside from the Bad Mo-fo 8th notes on the cowbell in Salsa music!
Bobbo 77'

This post is certainly how I view the issue

[wilser]

The clave is the basis for all rhythms in what is now called 'salsa' music, which is basically a mix of old afro cuban rhythms including chachacha, guaguanco, son, and others. All the patterns instruments in a salsa band play are based on the clave and syncopations of it.

It's analogous to the swing 8th notes in jazz.

John Patitucci's videos have a very good explanation of how the clave works and how a bass line is built on it (of all places, a non-latino musician!).

[Phil Smith]

Originally Posted by wilser

John Patitucci's videos have a very good explanation of how the clave works and how a bass line is built on it (of all places, a non-latino musician!).

He's probably just sharing some information that he got from latino musicians.

[Zebra]

I'll share the stuff I have been told by really experienced Latin jazz musicians I know.
You know this already, no doubt, but "Latin jazz" is a jazzified compilation of a bunch of different traditional musical styles from South and Central America. Rhythm and percussion is very important in these styles, and they all have their own strictly-defined rhythms that have been unchanged for hundreds of years.
From a traditional standpoint, it is critical to know these rhythms correctly. Fudging them up would really piss off the traditional breed of genuine Latin musicians.
Since the bass imitates some traditional percussion part or instrument, you ought to know those rhythms by heart if you want to do it the right way. If you're feeling that your lines are missing a little rhythmic variation, that could just be a sign that you're doing it right.
I'm not sure why some people are stressing the claves as being particularly important, but if I were you, I would get a book of Latin jazz rhythms and start practicing them.

[jazzcrime]

Originally Posted by Zebra

I'll share the stuff I have been told by really experienced Latin jazz musicians I know.
You know this already, no doubt, but "Latin jazz" is a jazzified compilation of a bunch of different traditional musical styles from South and Central America. Rhythm and percussion is very important in these styles, and they all have their own strictly-defined rhythms that have been unchanged for hundreds of years.
From a traditional standpoint, it is critical to know these rhythms correctly. Fudging them up would really piss off the traditional breed of genuine Latin musicians.
Since the bass imitates some traditional percussion part or instrument, you ought to know those rhythms by heart if you want to do it the right way. If you're feeling that your lines are missing a little rhythmic variation, that could just be a sign that you're doing it right.
I'm not sure why some people are stressing the claves as being particularly important, but if I were you, I would get a book of Latin jazz rhythms and start practicing them.

+1 - have a look particularly at surdo drum patterns and in the more afrocuban kinda stuff the cascara.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Jazzerbone

My first thread... and my first real post! Truly a momentous occasion.

I'm a trombonist who has picked up the love of the bass. As a trombonist, I am beginning to become a little established (recording with Watrous in October) but as a bassist I am learning a whole new side of jazz I wished I had learned a long time ago. All that to say, this is an experienced musician asking questions from a limited bass players point of view.

I've been reading around old threads trying too learn about latin playing and I keep running into people saying that you need to learn clave patterns. Why do I need to know these? How do they apply to bass playing?

Also, I have run into a little bit of a snag in my latin lines. I feel like I don't have many ideas rhythmically. Most of that is because I don't have a really solid foundation of knowing exactly what works and what doesn't rhythmically.

Isn't it great when people answer their own questions?

You don't have a solid foundation because you question the clave. Don't question the clave. Simple as that. And when you buy books or take lessons and they tell you something is important, there is a reason. Don't make the mistake of thinking that you know more than the person who wrote the book and start questioning a whole lot of stuff just because you don't know it. Once you learn it, THEN you can question it.

[dulouz]

Buy this book: http://www.amazon.com/Essence-Afro-C...4073100&sr=8-1

It tells you EVERYTHING you could possibly want to know about the various styles and instruments that make up the style known as "Salsa". There is a section on bass playing. After studying this book you will understand the Clave. You will even hear it in a lot of our music, especially hiphop.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by jazzcrime

spain is a brazillian style latin song ....

but clave patterns and the cascara are cuban rhythms so for the sake of correctness they wouldn't really apply to spain or any other brazillian styles like bossa nova, samba or baion... .

This is true for this example - so as you say this tune is a Jazz Samba, based on Brazilian music - whereas the clave comes from Cuban music and is the basis of Salsa.

Although there is a bossa clave :

[jazzcrime]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

This is true for this example - so as you say this tune is a Jazz Samba, based on Brazilian music - whereas the clave comes from Cuban music and is the basis of Salsa.

Although there is a bossa clave :

very true! i thought maybe that was more something that was invented when latin was put into jazz and a kit was used instead of a percussion ensemble?

[Eublet]

It sounds like you are approaching this from the wrong angle. Have you spent a lot of time listening to Latin music? It's hard to learn a language that you haven't heard spoken. I would suggest that you build up a collection, and listen to it for hours every day, even if it's just the background. You'll begin to internalize it and the rhythms will become second nature to you. Young latino children don't have to be "taught" what the clave is. Buy the time they are in their teens they just know it.

That doesn't mean some outright study won't help you get up to speed faster. But you are going to have a very hard time playing with any feel or authenticity if the music isn't deeply imbedded inside you from many hours of listening.

[dulouz]

Originally Posted by Eublet

It sounds like you are approaching this from the wrong angle. Have you spent a lot of time listening to Latin music? It's hard to learn a language that you haven't heard spoken. I would suggest that you build up a collection, and listen to it for hours every day, even if it's just the background. You'll begin to internalize it and the rhythms will become second nature to you. Young latino children don't have to be "taught" what the clave is. Buy the time they are in their teens they just know it.

I couldn't agree more!!! Here are some people to check out:
"Salsa"
Eddie Palmieri
Celia Cruz
Poncho Sanchez
Tito Puente
Mario Bauza
Gloria Estefan
Jerry Rivera

"Merengue"
Eddie Palmieri
Olga Tanon

"Bossa Nova"
Antonio Carlos Jobim
Joao and Estrud Gilberto