Learning Chords Vs. Scales for beginners

[bassion]

Hi,

I'm trying to figure out which rout to start with, as a complete beginner (not reading music yet and only self-study at this point in time). I looked in some beginner books (Hal Leonard, Bass for Dummies, etc.) and it seems that a lot of it go the Scales way as a major method.

I've been also reading Carol Kaye's web site (lots of respect here) and it seems that she's more into Chords first, as the most important ground work. I looked into getting the Bass DVD for beginners as a starter, but would not like to spread out over too much material now (...time is an issue) .

Now, can you please explain a bit what's with each method, your opinion about starting with one vs. the other, etc.

Your input is very much appreciated.
thanks,
b

[fourstringburn]

Learn the scales first. Then you will see where the chord tones are in each scale and how it comes together. It is all relevant as you will see.

[Duke21]

Chords are derived from the scale/ mode, so better learn the scales and modes.

[anonymous122511]

Most of the music you're going to play on the bass guitar are songs based on chords not scales.
Your job as a bass player is to outline the chords.
Do the math.

[fourstringburn]

Originally Posted by jeff arddun

Most of the music you're going to play on the bass guitar are songs based on chords not scales.
Your job as a bass player is to outline the chords.
Do the math.

Not necessarily good advice if you are interested in learning music properly. You learn scales to learn the key signatures, then all the chord tones are within the scale of that key signature.

Once you learn all the keys using the timed honored method of the cycle of fifths and fourths, then the chords are easily recognizable once you learn how chords are constructed. As I said before, it is all relevant.

Playing bass doesn't always have to outline chords. You can play counter melodies and harmonies against the chords or add notes to the chord to become slash chords or change the chord all together.

[anonymous122511]

Originally Posted by fourstringburn

Not necessarily good advice if you are interested in learning music properly. You learn scales to learn the key signatures, then all the chord tones are within the scale of that key signature.

Who says basing your playing on scales is the "proper" way?
I don't. Carol Kaye certainly doesn't.
Many very credible teachers like Hal Galper and Mark Levine endorse a chordal approach.

"Chord scales can present too much information, or information that cannot be readily processed, controlled, and used musically by the novice improviser. It is much easier to understand chord-scale theory than it is to apply it with musical results in an improvised solo. Improvising on chords with chord scales means that a soloist can play melody notes that he or she does not recognize or cannot identify and control by ear. This can result in wandering, shapeless, directionless, or mechanical-sounding melody lines. Often the lines are played in eighth notes to the exclusion of all other rhythm values, producing undesirable melodic and rhythmic content. Such improvised melodies often tend to outline tonic quality on nontonic functioning chords and vice versa." -Professor Hal Crook, Berklee College of Music

Once you learn all the keys using the timed honored method of the cycle of fifths and fourths, then the chords are easily recognizable once you learn how chords are constructed. As I said before, it is all relevant.

The cycle is not specific to studying either chords or scales. If you want to learn to recognize chords you PRACTICE chords. Practicing scales doesn't necessarily help you hear chords.

Playing bass doesn't always have to outline chords. You can play counter melodies and harmonies against the chords or add notes to the chord to become slash chords or change the chord all together.

The vast majority of bass parts you will ever play ARE about outlining the chords whether you're blatantly pounding the roots or implying the harmony. Listen to Scott LaFaro to hear someone beautifully outlining chords much in the way you just described using counter melodies and alternate root notes.

[MikeBC]

This is not an either or situation. You need to learn both.

You want to be able to jump right into a three-chord-song rock band then you can start by knowing your root, 3rd, 5th, and octave. Heck add a 4th. Whoops by then might as well finish the job, you know.

You want to be able to do more or play a walking bass line, it helps to know your scales.

Know the notes for each chord and know the scale for each chord. You'll never be at a loss then.

Have fun on your journey.

[Basshoofd]

Learn INTERVALS. Then you can easily understand both chords and scales. Learn chord tones first, because music is written in chords and not in scales. (Scales don't outline harmony, chord tones do.) When you're comfortable with outlining chords, then you can start diving into scales to add some spice or filler.

[Jazz Ad]

Keys are scales are intervals are chords are modes.
It's all the same and all connected, just different ways to look at the whole thing.
You need to learn it all, it doesn't really matter which corner you pull first.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by jeff arddun

Most of the music you're going to play on the bass guitar are songs based on chords not scales.
Your job as a bass player is to outline the chords.
Do the math.

So only learn the letters of words you will use not the alphabet then?

But if you learn all the information you choose what to use and understand the relationships more because you have all the information.
In learning scales first, you learn the scale, then you learn all the options from it. This is not a hard thing to do, it is not a time consuming thing either... it is a matter of course that they compliment each other, not a case of one or the other.

I agree that at some point you should learn to outline chords to be a complete player, but it is not and never will be one or the other for me, it is about complimenting information.

[A tempo]

Originally Posted by bassion

Hi,

I'm trying to figure out which route to start with .... the Scales way ..........[or] Chords first ...... can you please [give] your opinion about starting with one vs. the other, etc.

Bassion, 1st you must ask yourself how you foresee your bass playing taking shape. For example, do you 1st want to become a musician, then play in a band, or join a band as soon as possible and develop your musicianship along the way? The latter approach is generally a much quicker path to follow. There are other options that don't include joining a band.

2nd, I recommend that you get a good teacher. There are many threads here in TalkBass about what makes a good teacher. Read them! A good teacher will lead your study to meet your goals.

Until you find this teacher, follow the excellent teaching on StudyBass. Also, read Practice, Practice, Practice in the General Instruction stickies.

Originally Posted by jeff arddun

.......Many very credible teachers like Hal Galper and Mark Levine endorse a chordal approach.

I concur with Jeff. Scales are really important, but initially they are too much information. If you join a Rock, Pop or Country band, your soul purpose will be to outline the (generally) simple chords and to do so in time. That alone is a big order to fill for a beginner.

One last thing. There is a lot more to music than notes, and the quickest path to making music is by developing your ability to listen deeply. Recording your practice sessions and listening to them will quickly improve your listening skills.

Best of luck to you, and whichever way you go, have fun.

[MalcolmAmos]

IMHO - A newbie to any instrument will be running scales right at first. Why? Scales get our fingers doing what they must do, scales let our ear get used to hearing the good notes from the bad notes. Scales are used primarily for melody, most songs pick one key/scale and use those notes to form a tune. People new to music relate to the tune, they as newbies have not yet learned about harmony and the rhythm. That comes after scales.

So as already said many times you gotta know your scales. You gotta know your chords also. Why? Our bass is an accompaniment instrument. We are part of the rhythm section, i.e. our job is to lay down a beat and call attention to the chord changes. You can not call attention to the chord changes unless you are focused upon chords and how they are coming up in the song.

So just as you got your major and national minor scale into muscle memory and took it to all keys. So you must do the same with chord tones (R-3-5-7), i.e. get some generic bass lines into muscle memory. See a major chord coming up in the song and grab your favorite generic chord tone you have stored and use that. How much of it you use is another story best taken up later.

We play chord tones when we accompany and we play scales when we get a lead break.

So you gotta know both. I do believe it is best to start with scales get those under your fingertips then move to chord tones. A venture off into theory about this time and learn how to take the scale and stack it's 3rds (notes) to get the cords of that specific scale will do wonders with how you build your bass lines.

Have fun.

[Art Araya]

You're gonna get lots of different advice on this.

They're both interrelated - chords come from scales. But to begin playing bass you need to know major and minor chord shapes on your bass. This is going to allow you to play supportive bass lines immediately.

You don't need scales immediately. If you want to grow as a player and understand what you are playing and add passing/approach tones to your chord tones, then you'll want to start delving into scales.

You can get there both ways. But I believe the most natural progression which gets you playing solid bass lines and making music with others right out of the gate is to learn your chords with major and minor being the two most important ones.

[oldsalt]

This is based off of my experience. The first thing that I would learn if I were you are all of the notes on your bass. Every one of them. There are many drills & techniques for accomplishing this. Above all else, learn these first. It will make a MAJOR difference.
Scales are our alphabet. Chords are our words. As musicians,we need to use both. As players, we need to know our instrument. Learn the notes on your bass first. Then, learn how they relate to each other. Everything you do on a bass becomes leaps & bounds easier once you know where all of the notes are instinctively. How many different notes are on your bass? How many notes are repeat tones? If I asked you to play every F# on your bass could you do it in a few seconds, or are you searching?
When it comes to scales or chords first, I absolutely believe in the scale approach. Whole heartedly.
If something is worth doing, its worth doing well. I know the theory & principles behind the chordal approach & I just can't sign off on it. Great bassists & well known teachers can preach it all they want. I feel like it saves no time. The thinking in my mind is that if you learn the chords first, just to get up & running quicker, at some point, you will have to back track to learn the scales. We are agreeable that in the end, you will need both. So, why would you skip ahead just to have to come back? If you want to get off to the races & playing, learn all of the notes first.
I have seen thirty year players that don't know all of the notes on their basses. Scales & chords are theory. Notes are instrument specific. Learn notes first.

[251]

Some resources to get you through until you have a tutor;
I know it says Jazz but scales are scales & the arpeggios are easy to find & it's free;
Jamey Aebersold Jazz: Free Jamey Aebersold Jazz Handbook

Everything you need to get started with good habits, also free;
Wheat's BassBook 5.2: A Comprehensive Method & Resource for the Electric Bass Guitar

[anonymous122511]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

So only learn the letters of words you will use not the alphabet then?

My god where did I ever say "don't practice scales" OF COURSE YOU PRACTICE SCALES!!! How else do you learn to hear horizontally? Just don't practice them with the initial and express intent to superimpose them over chords.

This is about prioritizing the sequence in which you learn (a concept largely dismissed by the modern education system in general) and best developing how you hear harmony in western popular music. When you see an Am7b9b5 do you emmediately hear the notes of the chord and its inversions or do you attempt to superimpose a scale over it? The former makes for uncluttered and to the point lines where the latter in the hands of a beginner can make for "wandering, shapeless, directionless, or mechanical-sounding lines" to quote Hal Crook again. This isn't some abstract idea I thought up myself.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by jeff arddun

My god where did I ever say "don't practice scales" OF COURSE YOU PRACTICE SCALES!!! How else do you learn to hear horizontally? Just don't practice them with the initial and express intent to superimpose them over chords.

This is about prioritizing the sequence in which you learn (a concept largely dismissed by the modern education system in general) and best developing how you hear harmony in western popular music. When you see an Am7b9b5 do you emmediately hear the notes of the chord and its inversions or do you attempt to superimpose a scale over it? The former makes for uncluttered and to the point lines where the latter in the hands of a beginner can make for "wandering, shapeless, directionless, or mechanical-sounding lines" to quote Hal Crook again. This isn't some abstract idea I thought up myself.

Hey Jeff totally agree with your post, but as you say "prioritise the information". For me chords come from scales for a bass player due to the function of the bass. They have a whole lifes journey in front of them to learn the full range of what music can do.

[fourstringburn]

[quote]

Originally Posted by jeff arddun

Who says basing your playing on scales is the "proper" way?
h.

The cycle is not specific to studying either chords or scales. If you want to learn to recognize chords you PRACTICE chords. Practicing scales doesn't necessarily help you hear chords.

I think you are missing the point. I never said base all your playing on scales is the proper way, I'm talking about learning music as theory properly. Then you can apply what you have learned in the context of playing.
Again, scales and chords are relevant, IT IS IMPORTANT TO KNOW BOTH. Scales contain the chord tones in it. It is easy to understand the makeup of chords after you know the scale which is nothing more than all the notes in a particular key! The cycle of 5ths is a tool to help remember the key signatures. This is all taught in the primary levels of music education for all instruments of pitch.

Example; the key of E major has 4 sharps, why? because if you use the cycle of 5ths you will see why! So what notes make up an E major seventh chord? When you learn the building blocks of chord construction you will see a major 7th chord is merely a major triad with an added seventh.
So the E major scale consists of E,F#,G#,A,B,C,#D#,E, Then any major chord consists of the 1st, 3rd, and 5th tones in the scale, now add the 7th tone and there is your major 7th chord.
Back to the E major scale to easily find the notes of the major 7th chord ( the bold letters above showing the notes for the E major 7th) E, G#, B, D# VIOLA! these 4 notes are the 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 7th notes of the scale, see how easy and relevant that is.
Because using the cycle of 5th to determine the key signature,( a system to help remember how many sharps of flats in a key) It is easy to know what notes are in the scale in any key and where the chord tones are and what notes make up any chord in any key.

If you are just going to be a fretboard pattern player, then there is no need to learn any of this.

I certainly hope Jeff that you as an instructor teach music theory properly rather than shortcuts, finger patterns and and tablature.

[Freddels]

Originally Posted by Duke21

Chords are derived from the scale/ mode, so better learn the scales and modes.

Are they? It's a chicken/egg issue. If you learn the chords the scales are in there too.

Learn the chords (triads) first.

We learn to speak words and sentences before we learn the alphabet too.

[GeoffT]

Ever hear of the Pareto Principle? The rule of 80/20. It says that the majority of your progress or success comes from a much smaller percentage of your effort. In many cases, it works out to 80% of the results come from 20% of the work done. The exact percentages are not important and will vary depending on the situation/application. What is important is the idea that an overwhelming majority of the results come from a small portion of the the time spent. To take advantage of this principle, that can be univerally applied to most endeavors, the key is to find out what is the small percentage of work that produces the most results and to spend more time doing that to improve or increase the efficiency of the process --> equal results from less time spent or more results from the same amount of time spent.

What is the role of the bass? The most frequently used and widely accepted definition I've heard is: to create/reinforce the groove with the drums/rhythm section and to outline the harmonic structure of the song. How do you define the harmonic structure of a song? Chord tones. Key signatures give you a scale that should work fairly well over an entire piece or section of a song, 7 notes spread out over a large section of time (58% of the possible 12 notes). Chord tones are generally 3-4 notes (25-33% of all possible notes) and can be applied at a given time that not only work well and sound good but they specifically define the harmonic structure/chord progression of the song.

So applying the Pareto Principle to the role of playing bass, what is the small portion of where you could spend your time that will give the most results? Chord tones and rhythm/groove.

The original question was, "which should I practice more, scales or chord tones?" One benefit of practicing chord tones is that the more you do it, the more you begin to hear the harmony, this happens automatically with repetition. Since bass players generally play one note at a time, it will take even longer to learn to hear the harmony than it would for someone playing a chordal instrument like guitar or piano. On another thread about ear training, someone said they were great at identifying scales but terrible with intervals and chords. From that description alone, it was pretty obvious what they practiced the most and that person confirmed that they spent most of their time on scales as opposed to chord tones and intervals. What you practice the most is what becomes the easiest to hear. The better you hear something, the easier it is to play it automatically without having to think about it.

Learning how scales are created and how chord tones are derived from those scales is essential to understanding the big picture. Scale tones and chromatic tones are great for making a line more intersting by creating some variation, creating fills, or adding melody/counter-melody and should be learned and practiced, without a doubt. These things are the small portion of the total picture or desired results and should be focused on less because they are not the primary function. These are the things that makes players different from one another and add the flavor and excitement to a bass line but they are worthless unless you can really do the 2 main things well, outlne the harmony and lay down the groove.

Learn scales and theory but spend your time practicing and mastering chords and groove.