Learning fretless; fretlines or not?

[Parabolic Box]

Originally Posted by MysticMichael

Playing a fretless bass with fret lines is like riding a bike with training wheels...

MM

Hell, you could say that about frets. Fret lines are more like the lines on the road. Sure, you don't actually need them, but they're helpful sometimes.

[Single Coil]

I took a slightly different approach.

I buy basses that inspire me. One day I went to check a fretted Peavey Cirrus in a store nearby, but it was very high on the wall and I had to wait for someone to get it. While I was waiting, I picked up an MIM Fender Fretless.

That bass inspired me. It resonated beautifully, and the neck was the perfect size for my hands. The fact that it was fretless was irrelevant. I didn't buy that bass because it was fretless; I didn't even know if I wanted a fretless. But I knew I wanted that bass because I enjoyed playing it.

I love holding that bass. I love playing that bass. I have gigged and recorded with it. It's just fun.

I don't ask myself, "Do I want to play fretless today?" I ask myself, "Which bass is going to inspire me today?"

[kb9wyz]

You guys responded to my question with gusto. I REALLY appreciate all your input. I have much to think about. You all bring up very good points. Even the one about Jaco

I try to focus on what my hands are doing, and not where they're hitting. My few forrays into the land of the fretless have yeilded results better than what a stoned chimp could pull off, but not good enough to get on stage with.

Thanks for the giving me stuff to think about.

A slightly different thought for you:

In my dealings with the bass guitar, I have come to conclusion that the BG, as an instrument, is a bastard, half-breed, red-headed step cousin-in-law of the upright bass, and not something that can be properly called a "guitar," even though it can be played like a guitar much more easily than a URB.

[Dave Muscato]

Originally Posted by kb9wyz

In my dealings with the bass guitar, I have come to conclusion that the BG, as an instrument, is a bastard, half-breed, red-headed step cousin-in-law of the upright bass, and not something that can be properly called a "guitar," even though it can be played like a guitar much more easily than a URB.

Ha! I just wrote a lengthy post in another thread on this subject yesterday:

Would you consider this a bass?

[Green Mind]

I don't see why you couldn't just sand the lines off if you got sick of them

[Mutant Corn]

They generally go as deep into the fretboard as actual frets...you'd have to sand off most of the fingerboard and replace the nut.

[Dave Muscato]

Green Mind, I hope you're kidding!

[funker]

i thought i would need fretlines, but then i tried out one without em and it was much easier than i thought. mostly you see the back and side of your neck anyways, so as long as it has the dots on the side you're all good.

[Depth_Charge]

Originally Posted by BluesWalker

a good ear. This physical help does not exist on a fretless electric thus lines and dots are needed to get you close, especially in the learning stage, which you adjust using your ear. Vancouver bassist Chris Tarry explains this a lot better than it just did, so check him out.

It also helps a lot to use a fretless that is identical to your fretted bass. This helps with muscle memory to find the correct finger placements. This was Jaco's approach: he stated that he always practiced on a fretted jazz and performed/recorded with the fretless.

Haha. I started on an unlined Tony Franklin Fender Precision P fretless, which in hindsight was a bit daft as my main gigging and rehearsal fretted bass is a 24 fret model an inch longer in scale (I think).

Given I've had the bass over a year and still can't play outside the first position properly I'd have to agree with this.

Maybe I should trade the ESP for a fretted Fender P, but I loves me pointy models

[Kael]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

I bet you play out of tune quite often.

You'd have lost that bet. Am I perfect? No. Am I good enough that I get regular calls for work and stand in on fretless? Yep.

But hey, don't let that stop you from questioning the playing of someone you've never met.

[BradyEB]

Random fretless question for everyone!
I've got an unlined Fretless Fender Jazz with dots. I've always tuned with harmonics on the 5th and 12 fret and have always played on the dots to keep in tune.
A lot of lined players play on the lines to keep in tune correct?
Is there a "correct" way or does it just come down to what you prefer?
Sorry for the silly question but lately I've been feeling a wee bit self concious of this!

[MD]

Originally Posted by BradyEB

Random fretless question for everyone!
I've got an unlined Fretless Fender Jazz with dots. I've always tuned with harmonics on the 5th and 12 fret and have always played on the dots to keep in tune.
A lot of lined players play on the lines to keep in tune correct?
Is there a "correct" way or does it just come down to what you prefer?
Sorry for the silly question but lately I've been feeling a wee bit self concious of this!

Dots on a fretted bass are between the frets. A lined fretless is just a fretted board without the frets. Lined fretless players use the lines as reference points cause that's where the note is.
On unlined boards, the side dots should represent the note.

Bottom line, if you're playing in tune, you're ok.

[BluesWalker]

Dots on a fretless are not necessarily the same as dots on a fretted bass. The side dots on my unlined fretless (Steinberger Synapse) are positioned where the fretlines would be; there is a dot for each of the missing 24 fretlines.

[Goofball Jones]

It's always confused me about the "just use your ears" remark when it comes to fretless basses. Ok, use your ears...but how do you hit that first note and make it right? If the neck thickness doesn't help you on a fretless electric bass, and people say don't rely on fret-lines to make you in tune...then how in the hell do you get that first note right? You're not hearing anything before you strike the note, but you have to hit it just right and then go from there. Are you using just the dots on the side of the neck to get an approximation?

What am I missing here?

[joehaven]

You should always hear the notes before you play them.

[bassrique]

Originally Posted by Kael

Every time I hear someone use the "but upright basses are unlined" argument I have to wonder if that person has ever played upright. Upright basses have a neck that joins the body somewhere around D or Eb on the G string. In other words, the neck joins the body around where the 7th or 8th fret would be on a bass guitar. In other words, there are huge physical references for knowing where you are on the fingerboard visually. Bass guitars clearly have the neck join the body much further down the board. Couple that with the much larger scale length on an upright, which means a larger area where you can intonate and be reasonably accurate, and it makes more sense that you don't need lines on an upright. Most bass guitars are of a scale length that will require frequent shifts, but small enough that makes minute inaccuracies noticeable.

Just get the lines. Lines are useful if you need an occasional viual reference. If you get into a spot where you can't hear yourself very well, they can be a godsend. The sole advantage to unlined fretless is aesthetics. If you worry about what a few other bassists think, then consider an unlined. Otherwise get a lined. Some people say they find the lines distracting. Those people need to quit looking at their hands when they play.

Note: the lines aren't 100% accurate, but they are very close. They are a great tool when you need them. Just don't rely on them to be the final say on whether or not you have intonated properly.

My first bass was an unlined fretless acoustic. I've no issues with playing either, but wouldn't ever purchase an unlined again for reasons I've stated above.

PS: No one intonates by ear. They intonate by muscle memory. If you are relying on your ear to let you know when you hit a wrong note, then you've already lost the game. Your ear can only hear notes that've already been played. IOW, everyone else can hear that sour note also.

+1

Get lines and/or dots, or have other visual cues.

The vast majority of fretless BG players use their ears and eyes. Pick your favorite fretless bass players, and then look up those people on YouTube. Very few will play something complex [up and down the neck] w/out using his or her eyes.

Why p--- against the wind? Aesthetics? Please.

[BluesWalker]

There is no shortcut to playing fretless. You have to practice, practice, practice. Use your ears (and a tuner) to detemine where your fingers should be placed to play a selected note in tune. Once your ears tell you where that spot is, you need to practice over and over to build up muscle memory so hitting the spot becomes automatic......... fretlines and/or dots will help guide you with this process.