learning key signatures

[bassinplace]

Hello.

I am a novice bass player so I have a very basic question. As I am learning to read, I am wondering why there are symbols at the beginning of each piece to signify the key. What I mean is, whatever key the piece is in will always be the first note of the piece, no?

[DocBop]

Do songs always start on the 1 of a scale no, so answer to your question is no.

The key signature is a short-hand to avoid having to avoid having to write accidentals to adjust notes for the key being written in. Take the worst case key of C# major that would require writing an accidental on every single note. With a key signature you write it once and that's that.

[bassinplace]

I think maybe I understand. So it tells you in advance which notes are to be sharped or flatted without having to write in the symbols for it each time?

[senorblues]

Yes, and the number of flats or sharps tells you what key the song is in.
The key of G has one sharp. Always
The key of C has no sharps or flats.
It follows the same as the notes in the major scale.
Get a chart of the circle of fifths.

[Jared Lash]

Often times a songs will start on the root of the scale but not always. Basically the key signature just tells you which notes are sharps and flats and which ones are "naturals".

There are a lot of guys here with more formal theory training who can hopefully chime in, but here's my attempt to explain things:

Most songs in C major (no sharps or flats) will start on C, but they don't have to. C is simply the tonal "center" of the song. This is made more complicated by the fact that the relative minor key (for C major this would be A minor) have the same key signature.

This is because C major and A minor share the same notes, but simply have a different tonal "center". One way of thinking about the key signature is that it simply indicates which notes are "fair game" so to speak.

What I mean is, C major is made up of the following notes: C D E F G A and B. Play those notes in ascending order, finishing on a C an octave above the one you started with and you can hear this scale. A minor has the same notes, but starts on A: A B C D E F G and then the A an octave higher.

Looking at the key signature alone you couldn't tell whether the song is in C major or A minor (or even another of the modes, something to look into later) but generally you can tell by the feel (major keys feel "happier" while minor keys feel "sadder" or if it starts on a Cmaj or Amin chord.

The key signature with one sharp G major contains the following notes: G A B C D E F# and the octave G. (The pattern for any major scale is whole step, whole step, half step, whole step, whole step, whole step,half step) But again, seeing a key signature could me G major, or it could mean E minor which again has the same notes, but starts on E rather than G: E F# G A B C D and the octave up E. (the pattern for a minor scale is whole step, half step, whole step, whole step, half step, whole step, whole step

This can be confusing and overwhelming, but what I'd recommend is learning all your major scales and their key signatures. When you have a good understanding of the major scales and the notes in them (and have the patterns "under your fingers" from practice) then go back and learn the relative minor keys.

From there you can practice the modes, which are the same groups of notes but starting on a different "tonal center".

Just remember, the reason you learn all of these things is to make them second nature. It's like grammar in school. You learned the rules but now when you write a sentence you don't think about subjects and predicates, prepositions and articles. You just write. That's the goal of learning theory. So that when someone says, "let's play a song in B minor" you don't have to think about the notes. You just play.

Probably a lot more detail than you wanted, but I hope that helps.

[tranceFusion]

It wasn't until I looked at a Nashville Number chart that I realized how much I was trying to overcomplicate these concepts..

[bassinplace]

Originally Posted by TheBigO

Probably a lot more detail than you wanted, but I hope that helps.

Not in the least, extremely helpful! Thanks much, appreciate it! Now let me chew on this a bit...

[tranceFusion]

Originally Posted by TheBigO

This can be confusing and overwhelming, but what I'd recommend is learning all your major scales and their key signatures. When you have a good understanding of the major scales and the notes in them (and have the patterns "under your fingers" from practice) then go back and learn the relative minor keys.

From there you can practice the modes, which are the same groups of notes but starting on a different "tonal center".

Is this really necessary? I mean, I just never really got stuffing a newbie with painfully boring excercises, without giving them the broader picture behind it or any type of reference point.

I think having a conceptual understanding of the scale intervals and modes will get somebody up and running alot faster. From there they can figure out whatever they need to, and the muscle memory will come over time..

I am sure there are plenty of guys who built their career on the pentatonic scale, anyway..

[Jared Lash]

Originally Posted by tranceFusion

Is this really necessary? I mean, I just never really got stuffing a newbie with painfully boring excercises, without giving them the broader picture behind it or any type of reference point.

I think having a conceptual understanding of the scale intervals and modes will get somebody up and running alot faster. From there they can figure out whatever they need to, and the muscle memory will come over time..

I understand what you are saying, but I disagree in some ways. Learning scales is only "painfully boring" if you make it that way. I think the best way to learn your keys/modes/scales is to make it a part of your practice and not the whole thing. And to not just run scales as an academic exercise, but to run through them a bit to get the fingerings and then to try and write with them without over thinking. Just play with the scales and not worry about hitting wrong notes. It's just part of the process.

I would never tell a beginner to spend all their time on running scales, but it should be part of their practice. I was simply trying to give a complete answer.

Now, if the question was, "what are the best things I could do to become a better player" my answer would be that some theory work should be a part of it, but that playing with as many people as possible and learning songs by ear are even more valuable.

And all of those things should be related. Knowing your keys and scales will let you play easier with other musicians and learning songs by ear will reinforce theory as you figure out what keys songs are in, what the chord progressions are etc.

But the bottom line is that whatever you work on, you need to have fun playing your instrument.

Good luck.

[Jake of Bass]

I made a post about this a while ago, it may be of some use to you.

chords

[ProffesB]

A thumbrule my band instructor in high school tought us was for flat key signatures the second to last flat is the key (ie. e flat major has b, e and a as flats)

the sharp major key is one half step above the last sharp in the signature ( ie. G major only has an f #)

[tranceFusion]

Originally Posted by TheBigO

I would never tell a beginner to spend all their time on running scales, but it should be part of their practice. I was simply trying to give a complete answer.

Right on..

My first teacher sat me down in front of a Mel Bay method book and that is all we worked on. The better part of a year later I was burnt out.. I couldn't play with anybody.. All I had was a bunch of memorized scales, and nowhere was there any indication to me of how this all fit together (this was before the abundance of information on the internet though, maybe there is less of an excuse today). Away the bass went into the closet for several years..

(just as a side note, my 2nd attempt at lessons was the complete opposite.. the guy was just trying to jam on bluegrass tunes the whole time)

My 3rd teacher set a nashville number chart in front of me. It was so simple! there was a pattern that tied everything together. I could derive modes from it easily - heck, I even knew what a mode was.

Standard notation is great for sight reading a piece of music.. IMO it does a very poor job of conveying the underlying concepts behind the music.

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by tranceFusion

Standard notation is great for sight reading a piece of music.. IMO it does a very poor job of conveying the underlying concepts behind the music.

What? No notation system is going to convey the underlying concepts of behind the music but standard notation is going to be able to do the best job attempting it. The only thing that's going to give you the underlying concepts is experience, not tablature, Nashville number charts or voodoo.

Realize that any other notational system that has been invented is just an excuse to not do the work to learn to read.

[greenboy]

Ah the fast food mindset about learning music: just drive up to the window and someone will do it all for you. Want fries with that? ; }

* * *

OK, onto serious. Once you learn the key sigs for each key you will discover that much transcribed modern music has to use an incredible amount of accidentals and naturals due to the music often being based on dominant seventh chords, modal approaches instead of major or pure minor scales, small subsections that modulate, etc.

When I chart I just dispense with a key sig entirely unless the material conforms well to one. Then I add accidentals as needed - and as is standard elsewhere they carry though a measure unless countermanded by a natural following in that measure.

Sometimes I write the basic tonal center chord for the entire piece or sections down where it makes best sense, or even include some of the basic changes if it would help the person using that sheet.

[greenboy]

Of course classical key sigs are easy enough to memorize, and you can spur your blank moments by using the circle of fifths/fourths.

[lowend219]

www.musictheory.net has some cool little flash games to help memorize key signatures. i've been playing them in my spare time to help drill the stuff into my head.

[dvh]

Originally Posted by tranceFusion

I am sure there are plenty of guys who built their career on the pentatonic scale, anyway..

Amen to that. It's refreshing to get away from it.

[tranceFusion]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

What? No notation system is going to convey the underlying concepts of behind the music but standard notation is going to be able to do the best job attempting it. The only thing that's going to give you the underlying concepts is experience, not tablature, Nashville number charts or voodoo.

Realize that any other notational system that has been invented is just an excuse to not do the work to learn to read.

Exactly. So why does nearly every beginner book start with an exhaustive run through the scales in every key?

Although I disagree that saying the only thing giving you underlying concepts is experience. Western music usually fits a mold, and when you can start looking at pieces of music and how they fit into that mold, it is going to greatly accelerate your progress in a way that blind memorization never will.

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by tranceFusion

Exactly. So why does nearly every beginner book start with an exhaustive run through the scales in every key?

Although I disagree that saying the only thing giving you underlying concepts is experience. Western music usually fits a mold, and when you can start looking at pieces of music and how they fit into that mold, it is going to greatly accelerate your progress in a way that blind memorization never will.

Every instruction book has some kind of scalar exercise and that's because scales present themselves as an etude. A scale can be quantitatively described and can be played an infinite number of ways. The musicality of it is up to the player. Just knowing what notes are in the scale and being able to play it super fast up and down the neck over 3 octaves isn't the whole story.

How do you learn what mold Western music fits into? By reading a book? If I were to give you one of my big band charts that says "ECM Feel" in the upper left hand corner, would you know how to play it? I suppose you could read about the ECM jazz tradition in a book but unless you did a lot of listening and performing of it (thereby building your experience database) you wouldn't really pull it off.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

Every instruction book has some kind of scalar exercise and that's because scales present themselves as an etude. A scale can be quantitatively described and can be played an infinite number of ways. The musicality of it is up to the player. Just knowing what notes are in the scale and being able to play it super fast up and down the neck over 3 octaves isn't the whole story.

How do you learn what mold Western music fits into? By reading a book? If I were to give you one of my big band charts that says "ECM Feel" in the upper left hand corner, would you know how to play it? I suppose you could read about the ECM jazz tradition in a book but unless you did a lot of listening and performing of it (thereby building your experience database) you wouldn't really pull it off.

Here here i'll drink to that onlyclave, and the part about "blind memorizing" show how your thought process works tranceFusion, the idea is to STUDY and LEARN about scales and their possibilities... not memorise them