Learning scales

[JoeWPgh]

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

U can make anything sound like what we know as arpeggio sound. U can do it with a chord and u can even take a series of non chord tones or scale degrees sound like arpeggios. U will probably throw the music dictionary term back saying that arpeggios are chord tones, but that is actually a generalization. The word chord is used loosely. The definition is based off basic harmony. In reality the term arpeggios have come to mean just a succession of notes that sound like an arpeggio or chord tone arpeggios.

You mean like...a scale?

[chadgrimes]

One drop I know what he said and I disagree. It's not common practice because I have encountered plenty of young musicians who have no idea how to do chord tone arpeggios. It's not common these days because enough old players including myself are noticing that students today are just running through scales when they solo, improve, and flat out just try and read melodies. Kaye, Metheny, Brown and a long list of famous musicians notice it.

[One Drop]

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

IFMN I will keep my word, but I did tell Fergie I would answer his question. Fergie, if the piano player is asked to play arpeggios with his left hand instead of a block chord, then the pianist would do arpeggios. I'm trying to figure out why u asked the question, and through the entire long rant replies that everyone has, I'm guessing that u want to know how that works with chord tone arpeggios verses arpeggios of other notes?
U can make anything sound like what we know as arpeggio sound. U can do it with a chord and u can even take a series of non chord tones or scale degrees sound like arpeggios. U will probably throw the music dictionary term back saying that arpeggios are chord tones, but that is actually a generalization. The word chord is used loosely. The definition is based off basic harmony. In reality the term arpeggios have come to mean just a succession of notes that sound like an arpeggio or chord tone arpeggios.

Things do have a commonly understood meaning, wanting them to mean something else is not a good way to get a post across.

I'm out (but out meaning out, not your version, which means in) because talking to you is like talking to an answering machine.

[Schlyder]

"In reality the term arpeggios have come to mean just a succession of notes that sound like an arpeggio or chord tone arpeggios."

Statements like this have no place in music education.

[Febs]

Chad, can you point me to any authoritative reference which would support your contention that the term "arpeggio" has come to include non-chord tones?

[chadgrimes]

Schlyder it's true. Take the word Sonata, Sonata through the years starting with the old time classical composers has transformed it's meaning over the years to mean different things. Hang we even generalize everything that is from Bach to Mozart as all Classical music. Classical music technically is just from the classical period. Even 21 century compositions that sound like something written by Mozart is considered classical. I see the misuse of the word Genre all the time. People refer to pop, rock, reggae as different genres. Technically that is incorrect. Those are all different styles in the genre of song form. Genres are opera, song form, oratorios, ballet, etc. so technically people when asked what genre do they like should be saying I like song form genre and my favorite style is punk, etc. but in 21st century talk we just lump it to mean what we want it to for today's terms.

[chadgrimes]

A tonal music or serial compositions. Schoenberg compositions can't fine a tonal center lots of times. So yes you can do arpeggios without any real sense of what we know as traditional harmony.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

IFMN I will keep my word, but I did tell Fergie I would answer his question. Fergie, if the piano player is asked to play arpeggios with his left hand instead of a block chord, then the pianist would do arpeggios. I'm trying to figure out why u asked the question, and through the entire long rant replies that everyone has, I'm guessing that u want to know how that works with chord tone arpeggios verses arpeggios of other notes?
U can make anything sound like what we know as arpeggio sound. U can do it with a chord and u can even take a series of non chord tones or scale degrees sound like arpeggios. U will probably throw the music dictionary term back saying that arpeggios are chord tones, but that is actually a generalization. The word chord is used loosely. The definition is based off basic harmony. In reality the term arpeggios have come to mean just a succession of notes that sound like an arpeggio or chord tone arpeggios.

No.. not going to through anything technical back at you just ask to to read what you have replied to a simple answer.

You also managed to add the phrase "the word chord is used loosely" when in fact the word chord says it all, as does the word arpegio or its tenses......two words together that explain what is expected of the player when they read the music. You complicate a simple idea....When we want someone to play a C chord, we say play C chord, we do not say " Play the major diatonic chord between B and D", though it is correct, it is complicating a simple premise that has a term to deal with it.

p.s. before you do your new thread, please learn from what happened on this one. Set out your premise, make your points within music, do not use famous players to make a point, or you will find that just as well known players will be used to counter it.
The same applies to any examples you cite, if they are one dimensional point, they will be countered by equally one dimensional points, as will they if the generalise or are vague.
Remember you are talking about American Education and players, not players from around the world in general.

All the best Chad

[bluesbass99]

This is a great thread! There is lots of great information and opinions. This thread is an education in itself. Keep it going.

[Johnny StingRay]

On stage jamming through Satin Doll......."Hey, hey, hey!!! Stop the music! Man, what's up with playing that mixolydian scale? And why is the sax player playing a dorian mode. I'm playing arpeggios dang it!!! That D# is way out of line when I'm arpeggiating that D7, and sounds so dumb while Mr. Piano man is flying through an augmented scale run????? This is all crazy, crazy, crazy!!!!!".............Dude in back of club sitting at the bar................"Hey!!!! Shut the hell up and just play the damn song!"

[Febs]

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

A tonal music or serial compositions. Schoenberg compositions can't fine a tonal center lots of times. So yes you can do arpeggios without any real sense of what we know as traditional harmony.

Was this directed to me? If so, it is not responsive to my question. It was a simple question: can you point to any authoritative reference for your claim regarding the meaning of the term "arpeggio"?

[chadgrimes]

Fergie I have no idea what u are trying to get at or want me to say. U are vague in your questions and long winded in your responses.
The simple answer if that is what u want is to arpeggiate the chord if that is what the composer wants! However, u always seem to me to want to know how this relates to everything. Now I'm sure u will take this response and flip it another way.

[chadgrimes]

Exactly Johnny, well said, that's why the great jazz musicians say KNOW YOUR CHORD TONE ARPEGGIOS DUDE and read around the chord. If we do that u don't have to worry about all these scales flying around from different musicians.

Seriously though, I made a promise to leave and I'm done now. Look for my own thread real soon.

[Joe Louvar]

Lets get one thing straight/correct, an “arpeggio” is NOT the sounding of just any notes - it’s the sounding of the notes of a chord in succession instead of simultaneously - and chords are built from scales.

[JoeWPgh]

I'm with you, Joe. But, I could even let the "in succession" part slide for a broken arpeggio. But as soon as non chord notes are added, it's a phrase, a lick, or part of a scale. But it can no longer be considered an arpeggio. That would be like calling a bicycle a car, because they are both vehicles.

Originally Posted by Joe Louvar

Lets get one thing straight/correct, an “arpeggio” is NOT the sounding of just any notes - it’s the sounding of the notes of a chord in succession instead of simultaneously - and chords are built from scales.

[Joe Louvar]

Originally Posted by JoeWPgh

I'm with you, Joe. But, I could even let the "in succession" part slide for a broken arpeggio. But as soon as non chord notes are added, it's a phrase, a lick, or part of a scale. But it can no longer be considered an arpeggio. That would be like calling a bicycle a car, because they are both vehicles.

That is correct - an arpeggio is the soundings of the notes of a "chord" in succession.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

Fergie I have no idea what u are trying to get at or want me to say. U are vague in your questions and long winded in your responses.
The simple answer if that is what u want is to arpeggiate the chord if that is what the composer wants! However, u always seem to me to want to know how this relates to everything. Now I'm sure u will take this response and flip it another way.

I am trying to get you to think music..that is all, you are thinking bass guitar. I am not vague, you lack the information to understand it, in as much as you cannot be respecfull when replying..you cannot seem to see when you are being insulting my friend.

You are being dis-respecful when using terms like "long winded". That means, empty with no real substance, moving around the subject without really answering it, or as you might say in America, "blowing it out of your a$$".

The fact you cannot get this....again...shows your depth of Knowledge about how to intract with other and other cultures..but then again you did say you didn't care.

By the way a Sonata is called a Sonata......because the word means "sound like" meaning it is to be played not sung. "Cantare" means sung not played.
Why is this so?....again like the use of arpeggiato next to chord, when the music is in Sonata form it is played, because in those days when a manuscript was being read, the conductor or musicians, knew what parts were to be played and what parts were sung.....simple really.

And these terms mean the same today as there intention was when they first entered use.
Unless you are teaching students Sonata form or Cantare forms, your reference to make a point using Sonata was pointless, beause to the composers and players that move in the Classical world it still means the same thing...it has no real new meaning.

And yes Classical music takes it name from one of the eras within the development of Orchestral music, but no one, and i mean no one that moves in the Classical world would ever confuse Bach as a Classical Era/period composer.
We use the term Classical music to mean the genre, and the term Classical era/period to mean its points of development.
So within Classical music, Bach was of the Baroque era.

Just saying

[Groove Master]

Anyway, after 12 pages of a stupid debate with one individual close-minded, I'll finish with this:

If this guy is using only Chord-tones, 4 in general per chord,there is already more then 50% of the work done compare to a full scale that contains 7 notes. So what is problem to learn the extra 3 notes missing?

Plus, you'll have the vocabulary of scales that defines key signatures and tonalities. Chord-tones don't support any of these!

That's all Folks !

[stretchcat]

Originally Posted by Groove Master

If this guy is using only Chord-tones, 4 in general per chord,there is already more then 50% of the work done compare to a full scale that contains 7 notes. So what is problem to learn the extra 3 notes missing?

The other three notes are covered by other chord shapes built off of whatever mode you are working out of. You still need to know the notes of the mode, but the arpeggios or chord tones or whatever you want to call them are where the interesting colors come from. For instance, playing a B minor7 chord tones against a Cmaj7 chord gives a nice Lydian flavor. The notes of the C Lydian scale are important, but the chord tones make it sound like jazz. Transcribe some Bill Evans for some great examples of really digging into the changes. He uses LOTS of chord tones as well as "scales".

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

IFMN I will keep my word, but I did tell Fergie I would answer his question. Fergie, if the piano player is asked to play arpeggios with his left hand instead of a block chord, then the pianist would do arpeggios. I'm trying to figure out why u asked the question, and through the entire long rant replies that everyone has, I'm guessing that u want to know how that works with chord tone arpeggios verses arpeggios of other notes?
U can make anything sound like what we know as arpeggio sound. U can do it with a chord and u can even take a series of non chord tones or scale degrees sound like arpeggios. U will probably throw the music dictionary term back saying that arpeggios are chord tones, but that is actually a generalization. The word chord is used loosely. The definition is based off basic harmony. In reality the term arpeggios have come to mean just a succession of notes that sound like an arpeggio or chord tone arpeggios.

I don't know why it took me so long to figure it out, but you are the guy that has to have the last word. Learn the terminology and what it means to 99.99999% of musicians and then you can have a discussion. I can call a duck a dog but it wont bark.

I know your type - you'll continue to argue until this thread is closed and it doesn't matter if the entire population of talk bass disagrees with you, you'll continue to insist you are right.