Learning scales

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

Apparently you guys did NOT watch the Carol Kaye video. She shows you how it is done. First she said right out of her mouth, NO ONE in the 40s and 50s played scale tones. It was Chordal Tones. No one in the Jazz world sees it that way. Here is why, I will break it down for you what Carol Kaye is saying. First scales do NOT help you hear or see it better. The reason is YOU DONT HEAR the CORRECT CHORDAL INTERVALS in your ear. CHords are the EVERY OTHER NOTE of a scale. When you play scales you really DONT MOVE and you DONT hear the hills and valleys of your playing. Listen to Carol she is right on in the video. Second of all, learning the CHORDAL arpeggios allows u to play all the CHORD TONE patterns withOUT thinking about it and having to compensate lowering this and that in one isolated scale pattern. Plus Jazz music has BORROWED chords from many different keys. 75 percent of Jazz runs cycle and there is NO WAY a person is going to be able to react quick enough with scales over those chord changes. Scale people dont get it because they dont DEFINE the harmony right. Here is a test. Teachers will tell u that a C scale works over a C chord. BULL! Have someone strum a C chord or play it on the piano and then get a bass and play nothing but F notes or D, F, A notes. In THEORY its suppose to work and it doesnt because the F will CLASH against the E note of the C chord and the notes D, F, A over a C chord will sound AIRY, simply because the player had NO sense of CHORDAL tones viewing it from a scale perspective. Watch the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9idtdWAAEA

You sort of hit the point and miss the point. The C scale over a C chord is not a literal thing, it a a reference, theory is a reference, and Carol is right what she says.....in her sitiuation. What we do is we learn more than is required so we can reference it.
Some call it chord tones......some call it scales, it is the same thing.
It is the same notes being referenced.

The C scale over everything is a reference, not a law.
Play a Cmaj. chord, alter it to a Csus4, now alter it to a C6, now add a 9 to that and alter it to C6/9, now alter it to Cmaj7, now Cmaj9, and finally alter it to Cmaj13.

To do all this you need to reference and use at some point the notes C D E F G A B C, those notes are easy to hear, easy to find and easy to reference...those notes are a C scale.

By the time you learn and add the other scales and learn about intervals, it becomes obvious what are chord tones and what are not, what can be passing notes and what can be "avoid" notes. All of this comes from having taken the time to learn more than is required, so when it is required it is there to referenced, then you realise music is note about scale tones its about intervals, then it becomes about syncopation, then melody, then melody within a harmony or a counter melody to a harmony, it becomes arrangment, it become..........well it is more than just should i just learn some of the notes available or learn them all.

Am i to believe that from the 12 notes we use in Western music that if i order seven of them a key, i should only learn four of them?
Am i to believe that if i learn three more notes, it will hinder me?
So if i do not need the 2nd, the 4th or the 6th note from a C scale, then what do i use for a 9th, or 11th or 13th?

Chord tones are every note of the C scale, it just depends how you order them for use.

[Groove Master]

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

Apparently you guys did NOT watch the Carol Kaye video. She shows you how it is done. First she said right out of her mouth, NO ONE in the 40s and 50s played scale tones. It was Chordal Tones. No one in the Jazz world sees it that way. Here is why, I will break it down for you what Carol Kaye is saying. First scales do NOT help you hear or see it better. The reason is YOU DONT HEAR the CORRECT CHORDAL INTERVALS in your ear. CHords are the EVERY OTHER NOTE of a scale. When you play scales you really DONT MOVE and you DONT hear the hills and valleys of your playing. Listen to Carol she is right on in the video. Second of all, learning the CHORDAL arpeggios allows u to play all the CHORD TONE patterns withOUT thinking about it and having to compensate lowering this and that in one isolated scale pattern. Plus Jazz music has BORROWED chords from many different keys. 75 percent of Jazz runs cycle and there is NO WAY a person is going to be able to react quick enough with scales over those chord changes. Scale people dont get it because they dont DEFINE the harmony right. Here is a test. Teachers will tell u that a C scale works over a C chord. BULL! Have someone strum a C chord or play it on the piano and then get a bass and play nothing but F notes or D, F, A notes. In THEORY its suppose to work and it doesnt because the F will CLASH against the E note of the C chord and the notes D, F, A over a C chord will sound AIRY, simply because the player had NO sense of CHORDAL tones viewing it from a scale perspective. And the comment about C major going to C7 is incorrect. There is NO GAPS if you know your chordal tones. The finger patterns wont lie. You simply FLAT the 7th but you do it from the CHORD TONE ARPEGGIOS and NOT from a scale perspective.Watch the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9idtdWAAEA

Man, you make me laugh because she is playing a lot of scale patterns right at the beginning of her example when she plays TWNBAY! Not knowing your scales construction, you cannot do it like she does. Scales includes the proper links between the chord-tones. These links are just as important as the CT.

And again her examples outlined walking bass and soloing and nothing else. Don't get me wrong, I love CK but she demonstrates only the jazz side of the instrument on that video.

[chadgrimes]

Chord tone arpeggios are not scales. And carol like me plays notes that are non chord tones but they are passing tones or approach notes on the weak beats. Go look at any bass line and u will see that they r almost entirely if not all chord tones. Scales are a waste, u say u are learning more as a reference, I say, then why when I ask most bass players what notes make up a Ebmaj7 chord and they don't know? Also, I have to laugh at scales when most players read TAB! Tab is number system and scales are notes. All u are really learning is a finger pattern if u can't name the notes under your finger. And finally, YOU REALLY DON'T KNOW THE CHORD TONES OF EACH CHORD of a progression from scales. C D E F G A B C is not really going to help u when u look at a progression like C maj7. Em7 Ebmaj7 Abmaj7 .
There is too many borrowed chords and while u are trying to walk and compensate with your scales with sharps and flats and figure out roots and fifths and 7ths of each chord I'm walking around the changes with little thought because I know my chord tones. Your walking is going to sound airy with wrong notes jumping out using scales. And Fergie I didnt half hit it, I said exactly what Carol said. Carol is not playing scales she is play chord tones with passing tones. The difference is she sees it around chords and not scales. You can add up any notes and call it a scale but that is not how we bassists see it because we see chord patterns to create hills and valleys.

[Groove Master]

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

Chord tone arpeggios are not scales. And carol like me plays notes that are non chord tones but they are passing tones or approach notes on the weak beats. Go look at any bass line and u will see that they r almost entirely if not all chord tones. Scales are a waste, u say u are learning more as a reference, I say, then why when I ask most bass players what notes make up a Ebmaj7 chord and they don't know? Also, I have to laugh at scales when most players read TAB! Tab is number system and scales are notes. All u are really learning is a finger pattern if u can't name the notes under your finger. And finally, YOU REALLY DON'T KNOW THE CHORD TONES OF EACH CHORD of a progression from scales. C D E F G A B C is not really going to help u when u look at a progression like C maj7. Em7 Ebmaj7 Abmaj7 .
There is too many borrowed chords and while u are trying to walk and compensate with your scales with sharps and flats and figure out roots and fifths and 7ths of each chord I'm walking around the changes with little thought because I know my chord tones. Your walking is going to sound airy with wrong notes jumping out using scales. And Fergie I didnt half hit it, I said exactly what Carol said. Carol is not playing scales she is play chord tones with passing tones. The difference is she sees it around chords and not scales. You can add up any notes and call it a scale but that is not how we bassists see it because we see chord patterns to create hills and valleys.

If you like to see it like that, it is your choice but don't claim that it is only your way and nothing else. Many, many basslines, fills and melodies ( especially in jazz) are built on scales. Scales are important and so are Chord-tones. They fit really well together in my book

And congrats for your accomplishment on playing non-chord-tones in your basslines. But scales are not a waste, please be a little bit serious here!

[lfmn16]

Rather than trying to reinvent the wheel yourself, just get a good method book and work through it. When I was studying I used the Simandl method and I still take it out from time to time as a refresher. There is a reason that an entire generation of bass players learned to play using that method - it works.

[chadgrimes]

Ifmn16, im not reinventing the wheel, that started in the late 80s and 90s when theorist got involved and tried to reinvent the wheel with scales. i didnt invent this system, rather its a common sense way that ALL THE MUSICIANS OF THE PAST PLAYED AND THE GREAT ONES TODAY STILL DO. Hey Groove I don't mean to ruffle any feathers and you certainly can play the way u want.
But all I'm saying is I just find it funny when everyone has scales on their brains and no one mentions chord tone arpeggios. The thing that makes it more funny is when the greats who we all aspire to be like dont use scales and are telling u the way they play and 95 percent of bass players go the opposite way.
One has to HONESTLY ASK THEMSELVES THESE QUESTIONS.
1. Can I name all the chord tones for every chord? For ex. What notes make up C-7b5, F#7,Bb7, etc.
2. Can I explain the correlation between EACH CHORD written above EACH MEASURE and the fact the almost EVERY NOTE (if not all) are ALL CHORD TONES that match each chord above the measure. Hint: It's NOT scales!
3. How do u explain the great bass players like Kaye, brown, Chambers, etc. Guitar players like Clapton, Van Halen, Metheny, etc., hands moving ALL OVER the finger board and amateur players hands in ONE POSITION playing Scales with so much step wise motion and sounding scaley instead of the hills and valleys like the greats.
4. How do u explain All the great musicians not wanting to play with guys who play scales?
5. How can u explain Kaye saying scales Ruin your ears? Hint: Scales don't allow players to understand what is DO or root, 3rd, 5ths, 7ths over EACH SEPARATE CHORD.

[narud]

holy **** i better forget all the scales i learned.

[Febs]

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

Scales are a waste

I'm a big fan of a chord tone approach, but this is nonsense.

[Groove Master]

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

Ifmn16, im not reinventing the wheel, that started in the late 80s and 90s when theorist got involved and tried to reinvent the wheel with scales. i didnt invent this system, rather its a common sense way that ALL THE MUSICIANS OF THE PAST PLAYED AND THE GREAT ONES TODAY STILL DO. Hey Groove I don't mean to ruffle any feathers and you certainly can play the way u want.
But all I'm saying is I just find it funny when everyone has scales on their brains and no one mentions chord tone arpeggios. The thing that makes it more funny is when the greats who we all aspire to be like dont use scales and are telling u the way they play and 95 percent of bass players go the opposite way.
One has to HONESTLY ASK THEMSELVES THESE QUESTIONS.
1. Can I name all the chord tones for every chord? For ex. What notes make up C-7b5, F#7,Bb7, etc.
2. Can I explain the correlation between EACH CHORD written above EACH MEASURE and the fact the almost EVERY NOTE (if not all) are ALL CHORD TONES that match each chord above the measure. Hint: It's NOT scales!
3. How do u explain the great bass players like Kaye, brown, Chambers, etc. Guitar players like Clapton, Van Halen, Metheny, etc., hands moving ALL OVER the finger board and amateur players hands in ONE POSITION playing Scales with so much step wise motion and sounding scaley instead of the hills and valleys like the greats.
4. How do u explain All the great musicians not wanting to play with guys who play scales?
5. How can u explain Kaye saying scales Ruin your ears? Hint: Scales don't allow players to understand what is DO or root, 3rd, 5ths, 7ths over EACH SEPARATE CHORD.

I'll go with your quiz because I love them and as a music teacher ( university and college levels) i do these kind of things in my classes.

1) yes i can name all the Chord-tones from the chords BUT MORE IMPORTANT I ANALYZE THE HARMONIC FUNCTION OF THOSE CHORDS WITHIN THE CHORD PROGRESSION OR THE TONALITY! Which gives me the scales where the chords come from.

2) That statement doesn't make sense to me. You'll have to explain what you have in mind because chords symbols are the exact same thing as chord-tones. Everybody else in the band is playing CT. Do I really need to?

3) I move my hand on the fingerboard because I know my scales, arpeggios on the whole fingerboard and these musicians do too!!! The day you will play the C major scale in 16th notes from the bottom E to the last D and come back to that low E on your bass at 100 bpm, you'll understand the benefit of knowing your scales with great position shifts on the neck.

4) That is just a poor statement. I never heard anything like this. It has to do more with the fact that some musicians don't feel as much the music they are playing because they are thinking too much and being fluid in the jazz world takes a lot of time and work and yes sometimes it can sound sterile but with time, it won't sound so mechanical.

5) how can a musical tool such as scales will ruin your ears?
This is again a bad statement. Yes it is good to hear your voiceleadings but saying that a scale which contain smaller intervals then an arpeggio will ruin your ears is false. It is a work in progress.

And I can assure you that you'll hear and sing a better musical part if it involves scales more then chord-tones with non chord-tones approach. Try it and come back here after!


And I'll add to this that we never talked about the fundamental role of the bass player in this. It is a shame !!!

[JTE]

Well, to "know" a scale means a LOT more than "I can play it". At the minimum, for one to say they know a scale means:

A. You know what it sounds like- you can hear the next note before it's played
B. You know how it's constructed- e.g. for the diatonic major scale you know it's W W H W W W H.
C. You can figure out the correct notes (with correct enharmonics) for any key. That is, you know not only that the A major scale has a C#, you know why it's C# and not Db (and know the correct answer isn't "just because").
D. You can find it and play it over at least two octaves.
E. You can find and play it from the lowest note in that scale on your bass to the highest one, regardless of whether those two extremes are the root.

And for me, after 30+ years of playing and teaching, the best first use of scale is to understand the construction of the diatonic major scale, then the harmonized scale. For real world bass playing the better starting point is indeed chord tones. How you connect those tones will come from the scales, BUT there's a lot of room for chromatic passing tones that have nothing to do with the scales. So, starting with the chord tones is PRECISELY how we define the harmony.

But knowing just the chords without knowing how they relate to each other is about as useful as just being able to wiggle your fingers fast while executing a pentatonic minor scale. It'll work, but it's not going to serve you for being able to build a good bass line on the fly.

Here's the most important part of knowing a scale- understand the harmonized scale. See how the chords come out naturally from stacking thirds in the major scale. It's simply not enough to know that the ii chord is Dm7 in C, it's vital to know WHY that happens. So, get some paper and a pencil. I'll wait....



























... OK, now go down about halfway down the sheet of paper and write the notes of the C scale.
C D E F G A B C

Now, right above that, write out the notes of the C scale, but start on the 3rd note, E.
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Now, above those diads, again write out the notes of the C major scale, but start on the next 3rd, which is G
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

And one more time...
B C D E F G A B
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

NOW, analyze those stacks of notes. You'll see that the first stack, CEGB, is a C Major 7th chord. The second stack, DFAC, is the Dmin7, etc. That's WHY the chords that occur naturally in C are CMaj7, Dmin7, Emin7, FMaj7, G7, Amin7, and Bmin7b5.

That was the single most powerful lesson I learned about playing bass. Actually SEEING how a simple country song with G, C D7 changes and had the notes of the G major scale all together. GBD, CEG, DF#AC, it's all notes from G Major, and nothing else. That walk from I to IV going G A B C is the first four notes.

Now here's the thing- going from that IV to the V, you can play the C#. It's NOT in the scale but it pulls your ear to the root of the next chord. So, that kind of stuff is why I think for someone first starting to play bass, the first thing is learn your chord tones. Those are your PRIMARY targets. Learning the scales gives you the tools to figure out the chords, but your target notes are the chord tones so start there. If you nail the chord tones, the other notes you play can be "forgiven" if they're not quite right. But if you run a D Major scale under a D A7 vamp and never hit the right chord tones on the right beats, it'll sound much worse than playing the chord tones on the strong beats and play a Bb as a passing tone.

So, use the diatonic major scale to learn how build chords (both the harmonized scale and learning basic chord construction^*) and then use that to learn the chord tones. Then go back and study up on other scales and eventually the modes- but only if you learn modes for modal playing. RUN AWAY from anyone who advocates "Use D Dorian then G Mixolydian then C Ionian for a ii V I in C". That's because our job is to define the harmony, and that MUST include tying the chords together. Mentally switching gears each chord is a good way to get into seeing each chord as a separate entity rather than seeing that and playing a line that tells everyone those three chords are all related. Yes that silly dorain/myxolydian/ionian thing gets you to the right notes.

But it's much more clear that seeing them all as part of the exact same major scale, and seeing your target notes as DFAC, GBDF, and CEGB within that cohesive scale helps you tie the harmony together.


John

^*For example:
Major triad is 1 3 5
Minor triad is 1 b3 5
7th is 1 3 5 b7
Major 7 is 1 3 5 7
Minor 7 is 1 b3 5 7
Diminished triad is 1 b3 bb5 (and why it's called bb5, not the 4)
Augmented is 1 3 #5

jte

[chadgrimes]

Most people can't name the notes that make up a chord. Second, when it comes to hearing things, I say BULLCRAP to scales. A C note is going to sound different over a F chord verses a C chord or an Am chord. Plus if u are playing too many non chord tones from a scale, which happens a lot with scale players, your playing sounds airy and also clashes because players don't see it around chord tones.
Also, go sit in with any great jazz player on the circuit and play scales and see what happens. I guarantee u will get the stink eye and the jazz musicians will start making fun of u behind your back.

[Febs]

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

Most people can't name the notes that make up a chord. Second, when it comes to hearing things, I say BULLCRAP to scales. A C note is going to sound different over a F chord verses a C chord or an Am chord. Plus if u are playing too many non chord tones from a scale, which happens a lot with scale players, your playing sounds airy and also clashes because players don't see it around chord tones.
Also, go sit in with any great jazz player on the circuit and play scales and see what happens. I guarantee u will get the stink eye and the jazz musicians will start making fun of u behind your back.

Go play ONLY chord tones and see what happens. It's ridiculous to advocate only scales or only chord tones to the exclusion of the other.

[Groove Master]

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

Most people can't name the notes that make up a chord. Second, when it comes to hearing things, I say BULLCRAP to scales. A C note is going to sound different over a F chord verses a C chord or an Am chord. Plus if u are playing too many non chord tones from a scale, which happens a lot with scale players, your playing sounds airy and also clashes because players don't see it around chord tones.
Also, go sit in with any great jazz player on the circuit and play scales and see what happens. I guarantee u will get the stink eye and the jazz musicians will start making fun of u behind your back.

Just to recap a bit on her video, the walking she plays over her singing is There Will Never Be Another You and she is singing a Eb major scale in the key of Eb Major !!! Scales are everywhere!!!

[JoeWPgh]

I have two pieces of advice:
Consult a piano. How scales work become very obvious there. C Maj is the same notes as D (minor) Dorian, A (minor) Aeolian, and G (maj) Dominant 7. Basically, you have a different scale for every starting point within those same notes. These scales relate to the chords that are drawn from them.
Way back when I started out, I drew up a picture of the neck and where the notes are. I pinned this to my wall.It was a huge help for the first few months. It really helped to see where the patterns repeat.

Originally Posted by jostego

I would've thought this would be covered thoroughly here but I couldn't find what I'm looking for.

I'm a drummer who recently picked up bass. I think learning bass will make me a better drummer and musician in general. Also, bass is awesome.

One goal I have, is to learn the major, minor and pentatonic scales in all finger positions on the fretboard, maybe move on to modes after a while. I've found this:

G major

...which is great.

Now I know that the pattern is the same for all notes, with a sequence of half and whole steps, but telling me (übern00b) that "when you know the major scale for one root, you know them all" isn't good enough.

So where can I find more pedagogic figures such as the one I linked to above? I would ideally like all finger positions for all roots and several types of scales.

Some information explaining how to transfer the intervals from one root to another, i.e. how to play A major without no other knowledge than how to play G major would be amazing.

If there is a book I could buy that contains this information I'd be super happy. If it's free on the web I'd be ecstatic

[chadgrimes]

I don't advocate only chord tones. I'm saying see all phrasing, all bass lines, all improve of chord progressions AROUND CHORD TONES and that way one can see the NON chord tones the chord tones. Scales don't allow musicians to understand harmony against the chord, only the key of music. Scales are most dangerous to beginning musicians because they never learn chord tones. Scale people never seem to hit the right notes over each chord. They also don't understand chromatic passing tones and approach note. Trust me I have playing and teaching for 30 years, I have Degree from Berklee College of Music, I am a Pennsylvania certified Music Teacher, and have taught classes in the college level. I get so many musicians as students who can't read, only TAB, waste time learning scales, and when asked what notes make up a F chord and their response is F and they don't know the rest.
Music is basically melody against CHORDS. KNOW your chord tones and u can literally play any note u want on a weak beat and resolve to chord tones on strong beats. That's why those chords are written above each measure. Don't believe me, listen to Kaye interview on scales, listen to Metheny, etc. You will learn a lot.
1. Any bass line of any song will have 95 percent or more ALL CHORD TONES! I dare anyone to find music that shows otherwise. So why are we not teaching CHORD TONES?

[Groove Master]

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

Most people can't name the notes that make up a chord.

This is just a lack of knowledge and it has nothing to do with scales.

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

Second, when it comes to hearing things, I say BULLCRAP to scales. Plus if u are playing too many non chord tones from a scale, which happens a lot with scale players, your playing sounds airy and also clashes because players don't see it around chord tones.

Funny, some people might say that these bass players are very melodics!!!

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

Also, go sit in with any great jazz player on the circuit and play scales and see what happens. I guarantee u will get the stink eye and the jazz musicians will start making fun of u behind your back.

I can assure you that if I go sit in and play very simple basslines based on roots and fifths and use scales and I mean every notes I play, people will love it.

The bottom line is to feel and mean every note you play either if its a root, a diatonic tone, chord-tone, chromatic approach or even a wrong note....

[chadgrimes]

Grove master, No u are wrong. SHE IS PLAYING ALL THE PHRASES AS CHORD TONES with passing non chord tones. Kaye does NOT SEE IT AS SCALES because she sees it around the chords. Eb G Bb and the rest are passing tones. Scale people see things like this.
Eb F G Ab Bb C D Eb without any understand of which notes are chord tones over which chords. Eb is a chord tone over Eb chord but not G chord. Scale people don't understand this. Sure u can add all the notes up and call it a scale but that is not how Kaye and the true greats see it. They see the notes AROUND chordal tones!

[JoeWPgh]

I think you're over-reaching a bit with your jihad on scales, Chad. The chord tones are the dominant notes of a scale. I think we all get that, and perhaps more of a point should be made of it. But that's the simple fact. The closer a note is to the root, the more dominant it is are to chord/scale. 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 etc.

[Groove Master]

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

Grove master, No u are wrong.

Fine, good luck to you but if you are serious about bass playing, I suggest you review some of my posts here, just to make sure you do understand a little bit of it.

This a very friendly, kind and warm advice from me,

Peace,

GM

BTW: It is Groove not Grove but I'll take that as a compliment since Dick was my big mentor on theory, harmony, arranging and music!

[chadgrimes]

Plus consider this. Scale players never really play any chromatic notes. For example, if I saw a chord progression that went from Cmaj7 to Dm7, I might walk quarter notes over the C chord as C G C C# to D F A A# to the next chord. Scale people never seem to play anything but the scale notes and would have a heart attach seeing a C# over a C Chord. I say it's a chromatic passing tone on the weak 4th beat and if u get scales off your brain u could think that way too.