Learning scales

[IronLung1986]

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

The stone, no offense taken. let me clarify a bit more for you. I hear what you are saying about walking into different progressions on scale tones. However, NONE of the greats see them as scales. They understand CHORD TONES and non chord tones. The problem with scales and reading around scales is that the hand is locked into motionless scale patterns and that is NOT how the real true bass players play. It is funny how everyone in today's world has scales on their brain and NO ONE ever mentions chord tones. People will go crazy trying to learn useless scales and yet when I ask bass players the notes that make up a Cm7b5 chord they look confused and cant answer questions like that. A bass player should be able to see a chord like that and say quickly, C, Eb, Gb, Bb. Or when they see Fmaj7 be able to say and play F, A, C, E right away. But players now adays cant because they have scales on their brains. Now listen very closely to this advice. Sure, you can add up all the notes of a solo and come up with some scale name but that is not how the greats see the solo. Some times its best to look at a guitar player solo like Eddie Van Halen. Watch his hands, they go all over the neck of the guitar, however, a theorist will add up all the notes and say, eddie played a C mixolydian, yadda yadda scale. Sure if u add up all the notes yeah I'm sure u can box it up in a pretty name, but conceptually, that is not how Eddie saw it. What scales fail is in the PHRASING. What is Eddie doing u ask? Simple, he sees the solo around the CHORDS of each measure, he sees CHORD TONES and a little non chords to create the tension to resolution we humans love. Now lets look at the Bass, go look at any piece of music, and I do mean any, you will find that each measure has notes that i guarantee will be almost completely CHORD TONES that match the chord above the measure. For example. you might see notes in the first measure of a song that is C, G, B and I guarantee you will see a C major or C Maj7 above the measure. Why? because they are the CHORD TONES. It would be a major coincidence that if people wrote bass lines bassed on scales that each measure would be filled with chord tones. I play bass and read music and move my hand around the CHORD TONE voicings and NOT locked into one position playing scales. A note like C is the root of a C chord but it is the 5th of an F chord. Scales are not going to take that into consideration. And finally, I usually get the scale people thinking when I say.... PLAY A BUNCH of F notes over a C major chord and see what happens. Or, play a series of D, F, A, notes over a C major chord. Theory teachers will teach that a C major scale is suppose to work for songs in the Key of C major. Here is what u will hear, the F note over a C chord which in THEORY is suppose to work but it CLASHES with the C chord because you hear a minor 2nd CLASH between the E of the C chord and the F note you are playing. The D, F, A notes over the C chord are going to sound AIRY and NOT grounded. Why? because the player is not understanding the CHORD TONES of the music which goes with the chords above each measure. Bass teachers have got to start teaching students these things and stop with all the scale non sense. And finally, if you dont believe me, type in YOUTUBE Carol Kaye interviews and u will come across the great Carol Kaye saying the exact same thing! Watch the entire video especially around the 1 minute mark onward. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9idtdWAAEA

I think when people see that carol kaye video it's kinda like the alec baldwin scene in glengarry glen ross. Some people learn from an experience like that, and others try to defend themselves because it exposes a weakness. They tell themselves and anyone listening that their way is just as good because it's always worked. Well, a lot of the time I'm that guy. I'm easily insulted by things that could help me improve. That video scared the crap out of me when I first saw it because I realized that my bass playing isn't nearly as strong or authentic as I previously thought. But instead of dismissing it, I decided to learn from it. I haven't come very far, but focusing more on chords has improved my bass playing. So if you're like me and you get all indignant and defensive at stuff that would make you better, try to get over yourself. Try to learn something instead.

[Febs]

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

Joe...against chords? LOL, you best get over that because music and Bass in general has EVERYTHING to do with CHORDS. Every song u play is built of a chord progression. Every song you play that has a written bass line is 95 percent or more chord tones! Think that is a matter of coincidence!

You need to read more carefully. Seriously. NO ONE is arguing against chords or the importance of chord tones to a bass line.

What we are arguing is that you cannot divorce scales and chords and pretend to learn one without learning the other. Anyone who does so has a serious gap in his knowledge. The "scale person" you keep referring to has the problems that you identify not because he learned scales, but because his knowledge is deficient in other areas. The "chord person" you seem to advocate, who relies only on chord tones and chromatic notes without having any knowledge of scales and the relationships between scales and chords, would have a similar deficiency.

[JoeWPgh]

How do you even arrive at chords without scales? A basic triad is the 1rst, 3rd of 5th of a given scale. C7? CMaj7? You better know what scale, what key, you're in to arrive at the correct 7.

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

Ifmn16, im not reinventing the wheel, that started in the late 80s and 90s when theorist got involved and tried to reinvent the wheel with scales.

It wasn't directed at you. I didn't read any of your posts and have no idea what you are advocating.

The OP wants to know how to play scales so I mentioned a method that has been successful for many students.

The internet isn't all about you.

[Groove Master]

Originally Posted by Febs

You need to read more carefully. Seriously. NO ONE is arguing against chords or the importance of chord tones to a bass line.

What we are arguing is that you cannot divorce scales and chords and pretend to learn one without learning the other. Anyone who does so has a serious gap in his knowledge. The "scale person" you keep referring to has the problems that you identify not because he learned scales, but because his knowledge is deficient in other areas. The "chord person" you seem to advocate, who relies only on chord tones and chromatic notes without having any knowledge of scales and the relationships between scales and chords, would have a similar deficiency.

Well said!

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by Febs

You need to read more carefully. Seriously. NO ONE is arguing against chords or the importance of chord tones to a bass line.

+1

The real problem is people trying to take shortcuts. Just learning chords and scales is not going to make you a great bass player. A lot goes in to making a great bass player.

People don't sound wooden or contrived because of what they learned, they sound that way because they didn't do the HARD work and learn how to apply it.

[sgiacomo]

OP: Bass Grimoire book is scale/pattern/chart heaven if you don't find anything else. Since you are new consider the DVD as well: Carl Fischer Bass Grimoire Book & DVD Package Well worth the $ for honing in on what you describe. IME scales and ear first, build up your muscle and note memory as a foundation. Being a drummer you should have timing nailed . Theory can come later if needed and desired. Good luck!

[chadgrimes]

No one is saying divorce scales, most of you have missed my point. I am saying LEAVE SCALES IN A THEORY ROOM ONLY! First you can learn chord tone arpeggios without learning complete scales. Most people have proved that by learning some scales and NOT learning the chord tone arpeggios. I ask musicians all the time, things like, What notes make up a Am7 chord? There response 98 percent of the time is I DONT KNOW. Then I ask musicians to play me a scale, and some times musicians can play me scales but most of the times when they can, THEY DONT KNOW THE NOTES UNDER THEIR FINGERS. The problem with scales is they are NOT consistent with the way REAL PROS have moved their hands around PHRASING. For example, over the years THEORIST have watched someone like Eddie Van Halen on guitar do all of this FAST movement UP AND DOWN the neck from head to body of the guitar. Then the theorist said, HEY, if we add up all the notes it just happened to be a G mixolydian scale because Eddie did this and Eddie did that. So then the theorist said if we teach students a G mixolydian scale we can have the student keep their little hand in ONE position to get all of those notes. The danger with that thinking is the THEORIST did NOT consider the 4 chords Eddie played that entire solo over. Instead of seeing the notes of EACH measure of notes against EACH measure of CHORDS, they grouped all the solo notes in one neat package and said Scale. This is terrible teaching. For starters, the theorist has THROWN the PHRASE of how u finger that solo out the window. Second, the theorist by packaging the solo into one nice neat scale pattern has disregarded the CHORDS that solo was played against. Students now adays see SCALE go up and down without ever considering how each note works against the changing chords. Students see this C D E F G A B C. And these students are taught that when u see a song in Key of C major that as long as you play C D E F G A B you are going to be all right. That is FALSE! Even if all the chords in a song are diatonic (belonging to the key) you are going to hear clashes. I see it all the time and hear it all the time when I work with school jazz bands. My brother and I give seminars and love watching how kids eyes light up when they start seeing the solo and reading around CHORD Arpeggios. They begin to say... WOW, Im hitting all the right notes or sweet notes. Scales are a problem because MELODIES were written around the CHORD Shapes and Changes. So the HAND should be MOVING to those CHORD shapes and playing the melody. Not scooping all the notes up and disregarding the chords and packaging everything into one nice scale! In the end hopefully what u can see is that scales are damaging musicians playing and are holding them back.

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

No one is saying divorce scales, most of you have missed my point. I am saying LEAVE SCALES IN A THEORY ROOM ONLY! First you can learn chord tone arpeggios without learning complete scales. Most people have proved that by learning some scales and NOT learning the chord tone arpeggios. I ask musicians all the time, things like, What notes make up a Am7 chord? There response 98 percent of the time is I DONT KNOW. Then I ask musicians to play me a scale, and some times musicians can play me scales but most of the times when they can, THEY DONT KNOW THE NOTES UNDER THEIR FINGERS. The problem with scales is they are NOT consistent with the way REAL PROS have moved their hands around PHRASING. For example, over the years THEORIST have watched someone like Eddie Van Halen on guitar do all of this FAST movement UP AND DOWN the neck from head to body of the guitar. Then the theorist said, HEY, if we add up all the notes it just happened to be a G mixolydian scale because Eddie did this and Eddie did that. So then the theorist said if we teach students a G mixolydian scale we can have the student keep their little hand in ONE position to get all of those notes. The danger with that thinking is the THEORIST did NOT consider the 4 chords Eddie played that entire solo over. Instead of seeing the notes of EACH measure of notes against EACH measure of CHORDS, they grouped all the solo notes in one neat package and said Scale. This is terrible teaching. For starters, the theorist has THROWN the PHRASE of how u finger that solo out the window. Second, the theorist by packaging the solo into one nice neat scale pattern has disregarded the CHORDS that solo was played against. Students now adays see SCALE go up and down without ever considering how each note works against the changing chords. Students see this C D E F G A B C. And these students are taught that when u see a song in Key of C major that as long as you play C D E F G A B you are going to be all right. That is FALSE! Even if all the chords in a song are diatonic (belonging to the key) you are going to hear clashes. I see it all the time and hear it all the time when I work with school jazz bands. My brother and I give seminars and love watching how kids eyes light up when they start seeing the solo and reading around CHORD Arpeggios. They begin to say... WOW, Im hitting all the right notes or sweet notes. Scales are a problem because MELODIES were written around the CHORD Shapes and Changes. So the HAND should be MOVING to those CHORD shapes and playing the melody. Not scooping all the notes up and disregarding the chords and packaging everything into one nice scale! In the end hopefully what u can see is that scales are damaging musicians playing and are holding them back.

Who are these "real pros" you keep screaming about? I'm primarily a guitar player, and I can assure you that the "real pro" bassists I play with know very well what notes make up a chord. In fact bass players in general usually know their theory very well indeed, be it chords, scales or anything else.

I play with a fantastic bass player who can't play a note on a guitar, yet he can watch me and recognise every single chord I play. I've found that's true of most bass players, whether they do it by ear or sight.

I really don't understand what you're hammering on about.

[JoeWPgh]

This is becoming comical. Chad? Could you explain the difference between a C maj pentatonic scale and a C6/9 chord?

[Groove Master]

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

I am saying LEAVE SCALES IN A THEORY ROOM ONLY!

Just that phrase is so ridiculous.

Do want the same example I gave you earlier?
Carol is your hero but even her on that same video you posted, she sings the melody of TWNBAY which is actually the major scale of the tonality. Just that is an obvious application of the theory in a jazz classic. Even CK couldn't deny that even if she says that "real musicians" don't want to play with "scale people"

All I can say is you still denying what makes a great musician, the vocabulary and the soul. Also you talk always about the solo aspect. What about some other aspects of the music? There are many.

[chadgrimes]

Phrase has a lot to do with it. And I'm not just a Carol Kaye fan. Pat Metheny says the same thing. I will try and find the video of Metheny saying the same thing. He talks about Autumn leaves and shows how the progression moves with your chord tones. He also talks about how scale players are always floating above the harmony instead of down in it.
Also, I can tell u as a graduate of Berklee College of Music that their guitar and bass departments have dropped this scale crap. Everyone knows of how contempory and well respected Berklee is but they are also rooted in Jazz and the way the real pros play. Berklee is dropping this scale crap because the pros don't play and PERCEIVE music around scales, they PERCEIVE music around CHORD TONES. I have all the JAZZ GREATS, KAYE, METHENY, BERKLEE, ETC. Berklee has always proven to be 15 years ahead of everyone. When we were working with midi and computer sequencing and recording, it was 15 years before anyone else. I guarantee that in some years down the road EVERYONE will be finally realizing that scales are stifling and holding players back because its inconsistent to the way pros play.
Also, I don't just talk about soloing. I keep saying...GO LOOK AT ANY BASS LINE TO ANY SONG IN ANY STYLE OF MUSIC! You will see that 98 percent of the bass line is CHORD TONES. If pros wrote and played around scales HOW COULD THIS BE? The answer would be IMPOSSIBLE! 98 percent of bass lines are CHORD TONE ARPEGGIOS!

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

Phrase has a lot to do with it. And I'm not just a Carol Kaye fan. Pat Metheny says the same thing. I will try and find the video of Metheny saying the same thing. He talks about Autumn leaves and shows how the progression moves with your chord tones. He also talks about how scale players are always floating above the harmony instead of down in it.
Also, I can tell u as a graduate of Berklee College of Music that their guitar and bass departments have dropped this scale crap. Everyone knows of how contempory and well respected Berklee is but they are also rooted in Jazz and the way the real pros play. Berklee is dropping this scale crap because the pros don't play and PERCEIVE music around scales, they PERCEIVE music around CHORD TONES. I have all the JAZZ GREATS, KAYE, METHENY, BERKLEE, ETC. Berklee has always proven to be 15 years ahead of everyone. When we were working with midi and computer sequencing and recording, it was 15 years before anyone else. I guarantee that in some years down the road EVERYONE will be finally realizing that scales are stifling and holding players back because its inconsistent to the way pros play.

I find it hard (read "impossible") to believe that any music school would drop the study of scales from their theory classes. Didn't you say you were 16? If so, how did you graduate from Berklee? I doubt you graduated from high school considering you can barely write in English.

[chadgrimes]

Mark, BERKLEE DID NOTTTTTT drop scales from THEORY CLASSES. U are blurring the two. BERKLEE keeps scales in the THEORY ROOM, they dropped them from PLAYING and PERFORMING labs! Also, I'm not 16, I am 40 years old and have been playing for 30.
I am a graduate of Berklee College, I am finishing my Masters at Immaculta University. I am a certified Music teacher and private music instructor. I've been teaching students for elementary, midde school, high school, and college level. I've study under many famous pro musicians and I can tell u they all DRILL CHORD TONE ARPEGGIOS and drop the scale madness!

[MarkMgibson]

So they teach scales in theory class, but students aren't supposed to apply them while performing? You're speaking utter nonsense, and please stop SCREAMING - it's considered rude on internet forums.

[chadgrimes]

Mark, try and understand, music theory has the word THEORY in it. It's just theory. Music theory was a class designed long ago to teach the underlining GENERALIZATIONS in music. Musicians in the dawn of ages have been playing music without theory. Then centuries later Music Theorist designed theory to teach and explain underlining generalizations about music. In doing so they PACKAGED their findings in nice neat packages and over simplified things to the point of going opposite to the way REAL MUSICIANS THINK AND PLAY!
The result is
1. Players today grow up and cannot really solo and improv well.
2. They DON'T know their chord tones
3. Read TAB, which adds to this problem.

Go look anywhere and u hear scales scales scales scales.
No one hardly ever mentions Chord tone arpeggios except all the OLD PROs, OUR HEROES who we aspire to be and play like.

So why do we desire scales then when NONE of the greats see it that way.
Again the answer is Chord tone arpeggios.
Look at any Bass line of any song and again ADD UP THE CHORD TONES!
You will find 98 percent is Chord tones!

[sgiacomo]

I really like playing The Man Who Sold the World by David Bowie & later covered by Nirvana. That bass line uses scales, not the reptilian or fishy kind but the groovy kind.

[chadgrimes]

Sgiacomo I'm going to look up the piece. I'm having a hard time believing the notes won't be almost all chord tones.

[Nashrakh]

People can play unimaginatively with chord tones just as well. I surely can.

Scales vs chord tones is not the answer to having nothing to say. It's not about whether you incorporate scale runs into your playing or not.

Try blaming scales on tab as well why don't you lol. I find the reasonings contra scales to be deeply flawed as the causal chain is all backwards.

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

Mark, try and understand, music theory has the word THEORY in it. It's just theory. Music theory was a class designed long ago to teach the underlining GENERALIZATIONS in music. Musicians in the dawn of ages have been playing music without theory. Then centuries later Music Theorist designed theory to teach and explain underlining generalizations about music. In doing so they PACKAGED their findings in nice neat packages and over simplified things to the point of going opposite to the way REAL MUSICIANS THINK AND PLAY!
The result is
1. Players today grow up and cannot really solo and improv well.
2. They DON'T know their chord tones
3. Read TAB, which adds to this problem.

Go look anywhere and u hear scales scales scales scales.
No one hardly ever mentions Chord tone arpeggios except all the OLD PROs, OUR HEROES who we aspire to be and play like.

So why do we desire scales then when NONE of the greats see it that way.
Again the answer is Chord tone arpeggios.
Look at any Bass line of any song and again ADD UP THE CHORD TONES!
You will find 98 percent is Chord tones!

Sorry, but I am a "real musician" - it's how I make my living. For the life of me, I can't understand why you think scales are so evil. Nobody here is advocating that people should simply play scale runs; what they're saying is that knowledge of scales is important, just as important as knowledge of harmony (or "chord tones"). Melody and harmony - scales and chords: those two things are the very foundation of music and they are fundamentally linked whether you like it or not.