Learning scales - Page 5

chadgrimes · #81 01-13-2013, 02:35 PM

Sgiacomo I looked up the man who sold the world. LOL, it's ALMOST ALL CHORD TONES.
After the intro the first chord is F major and the bass notes being played are F C C E all chord tones. The next measure is F CHORD again with bass line notes being F CC F E, all chord tones leading to a whole note D NOTE under a D CHORD. The verse starts on A MAJOR chord and the bass notes under that are a series of A notes going to C#...again ALL CHORD TONES. The next measure is a D minor chord and sure enough the bass notes being played are D F. F A. AGAIN AALLLLLLLL CHORD TONES! The music continues like this through the piece. I'm telling u guys its almost alllll chord tone arpeggios! No mystery why that is! Here is the link to music. please everyone look up and count all the chord tones. u will see the entire piece is almost alllllll chord tones
http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic...?ppn=MN0111169

**sgiacomo** · #82 01-13-2013, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

Sgiacomo I'm going to look up the piece. I'm having a hard time believing the notes won't be almost all chord tones.

Here ya go... I am not qualified to debate the theory just going by what I hear and they sound like notes of a scale. Please enlighten me and the OP, am here to learn as much as I can. Nirvana Unplugged http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fregObNcHC8
Completely OT: Seems like I read an article in which Duff McKagan was one of the last people to see Kurt Cobain alive, they were on a flight together and Kurt was bummed, Duff thought about asking him to hang out or something like that. Such a wasted life and talent.

**sgiacomo** · #83 01-13-2013, 02:42 PM

LOL, ok I see what you mean and get the vibe after reading all these posts... You post theory, I post the video. THAT is funny and tells me all I need to know. Good day.

chadgrimes · #84 01-13-2013, 02:50 PM

sgiacomo I posted the MUSIC LEAD SHEET. If u look closely at each measure u wil see 98 percent of the entire bass line is 98 percent chord tone arpeggios. Now what theorist will do is add up all the notes and say its just a F major scale and A minor scale. However, the bass was NOT WRITTEN OR PRECEIVED around scales but rather than the chords. The bassists saw EACH CHORD and wrote the bass line by MOVING his hand around the chord tone arpeggios. Scale people wouldn't have been able to use all those chord tones because majority of bass players using scales don't understand chord tones under CHORDS!

**sgiacomo** · #85 01-13-2013, 03:30 PM

Ok, got it. Can you help on this thread? http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f22/ly...pattern-948365 The reason I ask is that it has zero replies compared to 84 on this one and his guitarist is asking him to check out C# Lydian scales for practice sessions.

JoeWPgh · #86 01-13-2013, 04:26 PM

Chad, the more you go on with your jihad against scales, the sillier it sounds. I really do not get it in this context. I've played with soloists who have been guilty of this, but I've never really noticed bass players suffering from it (aside from soloing). I will grant you, that 80% of the notes I play are likely 'chord tones' as you call them. But I see them in the context of a larger harmonic context, which is indeed based on scales - or key signatures - if you prefer. And where do you draw the line on what's considered a 'chord tone'? There are chords that are made up of most of the scale. A Cmaj6/9 is every note of the C maj pentatonic scale 1,3,5,6,9(2). A triad, as we all know is 1,3,5 of a given scale. Without a knowledge of scales, how do you know what 5 is, or 7 is when it's be be flat or sharp? How do you communicate your chord tones, without a fundamental understanding of scales? No one here is arguing that all you need is to know scales. But you seem to be arguing that they aren't very important. And that strikes me as not only silly, but bad advice.

chadgrimes · #87 01-13-2013, 04:58 PM

I see the notes of the chord. When u learn chord tones u learn this.
Major 135
Minor 1 b3 5
Maj 7 1 3 5 7
Dom 7. 1 3 5 b7
Min 7. 1 b3 5 b7

That is how u learn them.
U move your hand to each chord zone.
Come on we've been over this already.
Scales is things like C D E F G A and that is NOT an efficient way to learn chords.

And Joe, if u play scales and I listened to u and watched u I bet u I would end up telling u that u are FLOATING above the harmony because u would be hitting too many NON chord tones on the wrong beats.
Scale people do this all the time. For a C chord u would play D F A etc. and that's why scale players don't get it.

JoeWPgh · #88 01-13-2013, 05:03 PM

135 is absolutely meaningless without the context of the scale involved. I mean, what are you counting?

Febs · #89 01-13-2013, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

Major 135

135 of what?

chadgrimes · #90 01-13-2013, 05:13 PM

U dont need a scale u just learn notes. For example, in guitar when u teach someone to play an F chord u teach them the chord and the Notes UNDER THEIR FINGERS. It's harmony! When I was in harmony class u talk about harmony not scales.
Same with bass, u teach students notes to learn to read and then u teach chord tone arpeggios and teach them to know what's under their fingers.

Febs · #91 01-13-2013, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

U dont need a scale u just learn notes.

So then do you want to go back and amend your prior post where you defined chord tones by reference to the major scale? You can't have it both ways.

JoeWPgh · #92 01-13-2013, 05:23 PM

Give it up Chad. You are not making a whole lot of sense. Yes chords are important, they are critical, vital, whatever. But so are scales. You need to know both. End of story.

chadgrimes · #93 01-13-2013, 05:24 PM

What? I don't need to do that because u misread my statement. I don't see chord tones around scales. I said that THEORISTS will add up all the notes and slap a name of a scale. However, the problem with that method is scale players NEVER really learn the chord tones. The true pros see chord tone arpeggios because it teaches and clarifies chords and harmony. It teaches students that a C note is the root of a C chord and the 5th of an F chord.

Febs · #94 01-13-2013, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

I don't see chord tones around scales. I said that THEORISTS will add up all the notes and slap a name of a scale. However, the problem with that method is scale players NEVER really learn the chord tones. The true pros see chord tone arpeggios because it teaches and clarifies chords and harmony. It teaches students that a C note is the root of a C chord and the 5th of an F chord.

You realize that the term "5th" refers to a scale degree, right?

chadgrimes · #95 01-13-2013, 05:33 PM

And Joe u say that chords are important and yet YOU are contradicting.
If Chords are so important to players then why is
1. So many musicians today not learning notes and reading Tab a number system. Chords are NOTES STACKED IN THIRDS.
2. Why does scale players sound like they are floating above harmony instead of being in it?
3. Why does scale players always play in step motion with that dit dit dit sound instead of the hills and valleys and movement of the chord tone arpeggio greats.
4. Why are ALL songs made up of 98 percent chord tone arpeggios?
5. Why do I see scales scales scales EVERYWHERE WITH THE YOUNGER INEXPERIENCED MASS OF musicians and NO ONE EVER TALKS ABOUT chords except when the PRO greats tell u it's the CHORD TONE ARPEGGIOS.

Feb u are missing it. 5th refers to how its compared to the ROOT of a CHORD and not scale!
U scale people don't get it! Look its so simple.
U scale people are taught that a c major scale is C D E F G A B. If the song is in the key of C major the F note is scale degree 4 But there is an F Chord in the key of C major. OVER THAT F CHORD THAT F IS A ROOT. music and songs are chords, Chord tones allow u to know which is root not scales!

JoeWPgh · #96 01-13-2013, 05:33 PM

There you go again with this mythological scale player. But do enlighten us. How would you know that C is the 5 of F without a frigging scale?? If I just counted notes, I could get an A as the 5 of F. How do teach people to understand how to arrive at what you call a 'chord tone' without a scale? Please do enlighten us.

Groove Master · #97 01-13-2013, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

I see the notes of the chord. When u learn chord tones u learn this.
Major 135
Minor 1 b3 5
Maj 7 1 3 5 7
Dom 7. 1 3 5 b7
Min 7. 1 b3 5 b7

That is how u learn them.
U move your hand to each chord zone.
Come on we've been over this already.
Scales is things like C D E F G A and that is NOT an efficient way to learn chords.

And Joe, if u play scales and I listened to u and watched u I bet u I would end up telling u that u are FLOATING above the harmony because u would be hitting too many NON chord tones on the wrong beats.
Scale people do this all the time. For a C chord u would play D F A etc. and that's why scale players don't get it.

Hey Chaddy boy,

Do you know the concept of tension and release???

It seems like you are missing a big part of what makes music interesting and let not forget the melodic side of scale tones along the way too.

Groove Master · #98 01-13-2013, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Febs

You realize that the term "5th" refers to a scale degree, right?

Hahaha, good one Febs.

This guy is so funny after all.

I start to think he is a troll!!!

chadgrimes · #99 01-13-2013, 05:48 PM

Because u learn chord tone arpeggios. U see the ROOT of every DIFFERENT chord as the starting point. Try and understand when u are taught scales u see a scale like c major as
C D E F G A B equals 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 in the KEY OF C MAJOR. Where scales fall short in playing and reacting to site reading is that while the C scale address the number degrees in the KEY OF C the I major chord only, scales do NOT address the fact that the key of c major has a Dm Em F G7 Am chords in the key of C major. So u scale people see F as scale degree 4. But F is the root over a F chord, 3rd over the Dm. All these chords are in key of C major. So scales don't work because u have to see how a note functions over the CHORD!

And yes I know the tension and release because I know chord tone arpeggios. Scale people don't know tension because u guys see F as 4 in the key of C and not realizing how it functions over the chords!

Febs · #**100** 01-13-2013, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

Where scales fall short in playing and reacting to site reading is that while the C scale address the number degrees in the KEY OF C the I major chord only, scales do NOT address the fact that the key of c major has a Dm Em F G7 Am chords in the key of C major.

Sure it does.