Learning scales - Page 6

JoeWPgh · #**101** 01-13-2013, 05:53 PM

Chad? I am backing out of this conversation. It is quickly becoming impossible to be polite to what I see as an arrogance based in ignorance. You lost this argument, for good reason. Your advice might be helpful to a raw novice, but it's just plain stoopid to those of us who have learned our chords and our scales. And you're an 'educator'? No wonder kids use tabs

Groove Master · #**102** 01-13-2013, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

Because u learn chord tone arpeggios. U see the ROOT of every DIFFERENT chord as the starting point. Try and understand when u are taught scales u see a scale like c major as
C D E F G A B equals 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 in the KEY OF C MAJOR. Where scales fall short in playing and reacting to site reading is that while the C scale address the number degrees in the KEY OF C the I major chord only, scales do NOT address the fact that the key of c major has a Dm Em F G7 Am chords in the key of C major. So u scale people see F as scale degree 4. But F is the root over a F chord, 3rd over the Dm. All these chords are in key of C major. So scales don't work because u have to see how a note functions over the CHORD!

Chad,

How can you tell the difference between the scalar tones and the chromatic tones if you don't know where the chords are built from?

To me, this is an essential part of what makes a great bassline OR solo that support the harmony and another one that blurs the whole spectrum!!!

How do you do it? Please enlight me because I only have 35 years of experience on the "pro field" and knowing my scales and harmony serves me really well to this day.

chadgrimes · #**103** 01-13-2013, 05:57 PM

No it does not because scales are only made for the I major chord.

Febs · #**104** 01-13-2013, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

No it does not because scales are only made for the I major chord.

Wow.

chadgrimes · #**105** 01-13-2013, 06:03 PM

Grove I'm going to go out on a limb and I will bet u don't know harmony and chords like u think u do. I would love to get together and show u more of what I'm talking about and how scales fail u. Scales are numbered according to the first chord of a key and I can't help u if u don't see that. However keys are made up of more than just the I major chord. Notes function different over different chords of the key and scale people only see F as degree 4 in key of C. Scale people don't realize that not every note C D e f g a b c is going to work over the chords in C. U have to learn your chord tone arpeggios. LOOK IT UP!

Groove Master · #**106** 01-13-2013, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

No it does not because scales are only made for the I major chord.

Ok,

Lets try something here:

We are in the key of C major and we have a Bb7 chord going to C Maj7. What are the extensions that fits the Bb7 so you can apply your CT system?

Groove Master · #**107** 01-13-2013, 06:07 PM

I'm waiting!

By the way , I teach jazz at university for the past 25 years, so just to let you know for our little "get together". ;-)

chadgrimes · #**108** 01-13-2013, 06:09 PM

I see Bb7 as Bb D F Ab and I see it in all forms up and down the neck in chord tone arpeggios in all inversions. Everything else around it is chromatic notes that are passing tones approach notes etc. I know all my notes up and down but the eye and ear should identify the chord tone shapes. This is how the true pros play. They move their hands to the chord tone shapes.

Your not teaching jazz if u are teaching scales. Miles to Coltrane, and all the greats didnt see scales!

JoeWPgh · #**109** 01-13-2013, 06:11 PM

Oh Groove Master, you ivory tower geeks with your elitist scales! But seriously, Chad has offered up what I can only rate as the most stunning defense of willful ignorance as I can remember

JoeWPgh · #**110** 01-13-2013, 06:13 PM

[quote=chadgrimes;13714640}
Your not teaching jazz if u are teaching scales. Miles to Coltrane, and all the greats didnt see scales![/QUOTE]
You are approaching high idiocy here, if for one minute, you think they did not study these things in excruciating detail.

chadgrimes · #**111** 01-13-2013, 06:14 PM

Groove master, If your university is close to where I live I would personally drive to there and if u would allow me, I would demonstrate in a clinic about how to do this. I'm series about this.

Groove Master · #**112** 01-13-2013, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

I see Bb7 as Bb D F Ab and I see it in all forms up and down the neck in chord tone arpeggios in all inversions. Everything else around it is chromatic notes that are passing tones approach notes etc. I know all my notes up and down but the eye and ear should identify the chord tone shapes. This is how the true pros play. They move their hands to the chord tone shapes.

That's it? No extensions? You know nothing my friend. This is a "real world" context where you cannot bul......t and you just did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

Your not teaching jazz if u are teaching scales. Miles to Coltrane, and all the greats didnt see scales!

Yeah right, if I wasn't good I wouldn't last that long and for your informations, Miles and Coltrane were highly aware of theirs scales if you take the time (especially Miles) to analyze theirs solos. Miles played many solos exclusively on scales.

chadgrimes · #**113** 01-13-2013, 06:21 PM

Groove I keep telling u that theorists can add up any notes and group it into scales but that's not how the greats PRECEIVED it. They see it around chord tone arpeggios. U see my friend in the end u cannot explain to me how ALL songs whether it be a solo or bass line are 98 percent chord tones. U cannot address that when scale people see C D E F G A B, how the greats managed to use the right notes to fall over the C chord, the F chord, etc.
Where is your Univerisity I will come and show all of u.

JoeWPgh · #**114** 01-13-2013, 06:23 PM

I'm guessing that Chad is a reformed 'scale player' (whatever awful thing that implies) Most of us learned chords at the same time we learned scales.

Groove Master · #**115** 01-13-2013, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWPgh

Oh Groove Master, you ivory tower geeks with your elitist scales! But seriously, Chad has offered up what I can only rate as the most stunning defense of willful ignorance as I can remember

I am really sorry about that!

But when it's time, it's time to use the real thing as an argument on something so fundamental.

Groove Master · #**116** 01-13-2013, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

Groove master, If your university is close to where I live I would personally drive to there and if u would allow me, I would demonstrate in a clinic about how to do this. I'm series about this.

They wouldn't even let you go at the cafeteria!

chadgrimes · #**117** 01-13-2013, 06:29 PM

Groove u are talking about extensions I know where each one is around the CHORD TONE arpeggios not around the scale of a key.

Joe Louvar · #**118** 01-13-2013, 06:29 PM

I see chords too, but I also know scales. Groove, invite Chad over and shoot it so we can all see - I want to see the battle of the jazz bassist video.

Groove Master · #**119** 01-13-2013, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

Groove u are talking about extensions I know where each one is around the CHORD TONE arpeggios not around the scale of a key.

So, what do you make up as extensions on that Bb7 to C?

chadgrimes · #**120** 01-13-2013, 06:35 PM

It's not a completion, I would love to put on a clinic and demonstrate so kids can learn. I want the clinic to be friendly and not a big argument.